1 1 2 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA PUBLIC HEARING BEFORE THE COUNCIL COMMITTEE ON 3 PARKS, RECREATION, AND CULTURAL AFFAIRS 4 - - - Room 400, City Hall 5 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Tuesday, 12/18/01 6 3:02 p.m. - - - 7 8 9 10 11 Continued hearing regarding: 12 13 RES. NO. 010533 - Re NeXturf procurement 14 15 16 17 COUNCILMEMBERS PRESENT: 18 Blondell Reynolds Brown, Chair Frank Rizzo 19 Michael A. Nutter 20 21 - - - 22 VINCENT VARALLO ASSOCIATES, INC. 23 Registered Professional Reporters Eleven Penn Center, Suite 600 24 Philadelphia, PA 19103 (215) 561-2220 25 2 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 INDEX 3 PAGE 4 Tony Radwanski, Deputy City Controller....... 4 Louis Applebaum, Procurement Commissioner.... 23 5 6 James Griffith, Esquire...................... 45 Counsel for Southwest Recreational Industries 7 Reed James Seaton, President................. 45 Southwest Recreational Industries 8 Bruce Cheskin, SprinTurf..................... 87 9 David Fineman, Esquire....................... 92 10 Counsel for FieldTurf John Gilman, CEO, FieldTurf.................. 94 11 Web Cook, Vice President, Hummer Turfgrass... 99 12 Pradeep Patel, Ewing Cole....................119 Reeder Fox, Esquire, Counsel to Ewing Cole... 58 13 Christopher McCabe, Deputy Chief Solicitor...160 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Good 3 afternoon, good afternoon. Welcome. This is the 4 meeting of the Committee on Parks, Recreation and 5 Cultural Affairs of the Philadelphia City Council, 6 and we are here to have a continuation of a hearing 7 on Resolution No. 010533, and we are going to try to 8 honor your clock and proceed immediately to the 9 first panel. 10 It goes without saying that this 11 resolution was introduced by my colleague 12 Councilman-at-large Frank Rizzo, and we're going to 13 ask that the following individuals please come 14 forward, and please -- if I butcher your last name, 15 my apologies. 16 Anthony Radwanski, Deputy Controller, 17 please come forward. 18 Michael Egan, Auditor Administrator, 19 please come forward. 20 Ashfaq Ahmad, Staff Engineer, please come 21 forward. 22 (Witnesses come forward.) 23 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Welcome, 24 gentlemen. We want to ask that you please state 25 your full name for the record, the position and the 4 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 office you represent, and proceed with your 3 testimony. 4 MR. RADWANSKI: Good afternoon, Madam 5 Chairperson and members of the Committee. I am Tony 6 Radwanski, Deputy City Controller. With me is 7 Michael Egan, Audit Administrator from the 8 Controller's Office, as you said; and also Ashfaq 9 Ahmad, our staff engineer. We're here at the 10 direction of City Controller Saidel to discuss the 11 installation and procurement of the playing field at 12 Veterans Stadium. 13 As you recall, the new playing fields 14 manufactured by Southwest Recreational Industries 15 Incorporated of Leander, Texas. This product is 16 known as "NeXturf." The turf that had existed at 17 Veterans Stadium prior to this year was known as 18 "Astroturf8," which was also manufactured by the 19 same company. It had been installed in 1995 and was 20 in the fifth year of an eight-year life. It also 21 had come under intense criticism by the athletes who 22 played on it as well as from commentators and others 23 in the sports community; some considered it the 24 worst playing field in professional sports. 25 NeXturf was installed at the stadium 5 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 starting in January of this year, and the City 3 signed a certificate of substantial completion on 4 April 5th, one day before the Phillies home opener. 5 A controversy arose when a televised pre-season 6 football game between the Eagles and Baltimore 7 Ravens was forced to be cancelled on the night of 8 August 13th due to bad field conditions -- chiefly 9 spongy turf around the baseball cutouts following 10 rain. 11 The day after this cancellation, 12 Controller Saidel directed we begin an inquiry to 13 attempt to determine whether the use of the 14 sole-source bid process was justified in the 15 procurement of NeXturf, whether the product 16 installed at Veterans Stadium met the specifications 17 set forth in the installation contract, and whether 18 or not the cost of correcting the conditions giving 19 rise to the August 13th game cancellation should be 20 borne by the taxpayers or billed to the product 21 manufacturer. 22 We immediately began work monitoring the 23 events at the Vet where representatives of the City, 24 Ewing Cole Cherry Brott, the City's architectural 25 firm, Southwest Recreational Industries, and the 6 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 sports teams were trying to devise a solution to the 3 problem. After our first attempt was found 4 unsuccessful, the City attempted to fill the cutouts 5 in with asphalt, a procedure that stadium staff 6 perform at the end of each baseball season. The 7 parties agreed, and the City, at its own expense, 8 installed and removed the asphalt for the next three 9 games, when a baseball-to-football conversion had to 10 be made. Unfortunately, the Phillies never made it 11 to the playoffs so the other conversions were found 12 to be unnecessary. 13 I'd like to provide the committee with a 14 brief summary -- as brief as possible -- of the six 15 major findings and eleven recommendations in our 16 report. 17 The Recreation Department, which has 18 responsibility for Veterans Stadium, had previously 19 retained the architectural firm of Ewing Cole Cherry 20 Brott to do an assessment of the stadium's capital 21 needs, including the playing surface. When the 22 decision was made to move ahead with the surface 23 replacement, Ewing Cole was asked to do product 24 evaluations, prepare bid documents, and oversee the 25 surface installation. It was at this point that the 7 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 Mayor's Office requested that the City's Capital 3 Program Office assume administration for the turf 4 project and the contracts pertaining to it. 5 From mid-August to mid-October, a period 6 of only two months, Ewing Cole investigated various 7 turf products, natural as well as artificial. They 8 made field visits, met with product representatives, 9 and solicited feedback from the Eagles and the 10 Phillies. In mid-October, Ewing Cole issued a 11 report on their product's short list. 12 In four subsequent letters to the City -- 13 November 7 and 10, 2000 to the Capital Program 14 Office on the subject of Sprinturf; November 15, 15 2000 to Procurement on the subject of products not 16 short-listed; and December 21, 2000 to Capital 17 Programs concerning the FieldTurf -- they provided 18 additional information on their product evaluations. 19 On October 17, 2000, representatives of 20 Capital Programs, the Office of the Director of 21 Finance, the Procurement Department, and the 22 Recreation Department met with Ewing Cole to discuss 23 this short list. It was at this meeting that it was 24 decided that the City would issue a sole-source bid 25 for the purchase of Southwest NeXturf. After this, 8 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 a number of competitors protested the decision to 3 the City Administration and to City Council. 4 The bid opening took place on November 6, 5 2000, and the contract was awarded to Southwest on 6 November 13, 2000. Work started in January and 7 finished in April. 8 Our first finding is that we believe too 9 little time was allowed for the planning of a 10 project of this size. The decision to replace the 11 turf wasn't made until August of 2000, which left 12 only three months to research products, perform 13 field visits, solicit opinions from sports teams and 14 their respective leagues, draft bid documents, 15 conduct the bid process, evaluate proposals, and 16 make an award. Then the City had only five months 17 to design and construct the project before the 18 Phillies home opener on April 6, 2001, eight months 19 from conception to completion. 20 To put this into perspective, normally 21 capital programs of this nature are identified a 22 full six years in advance in order to ensure 23 adequate funding and planning. Several forces were 24 at work in this instance, however, that compelled 25 the City to act quickly, if it were to act at all. 9 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 Because of the impending demise of Veterans Stadium, 3 once the City decided to replace the turf, time was 4 of the essence. 5 Our second finding was that the City's 6 architectural consulting firm was possibly not the 7 best choice to render a truly objective evaluation 8 of the various turf products, most of which were 9 newly on the market and not even in existence at the 10 time of the last turf replacement at the Vet in 11 1995. 12 The people at Ewing Cole had done business 13 with the City and Veterans Stadium ever since it was 14 built 30 years ago, had enjoyed a long-term 15 relationship with the Phillies, and had participated 16 in the installation of every playing field since the 17 construction of the stadium. This being the case, 18 they were the logical choice and probably best 19 qualified to act as the City's consultant to oversee 20 the installation of the new turf and all potential 21 technical problems associated with it. However, we 22 feel that Ewing Cole's history with the entity that 23 eventually became the sole bidder, Southwest 24 Recreational Industries, also suggested they were 25 possibly not the best choice to do an objective 10 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 product evaluation. 3 As product evaluator, Ewing Cole was the 4 City's procurement gatekeeper. No manufacturer 5 could, for all intents and purposes, participate in 6 the process without passing Ewing Cole's muster. 7 Even those permitted to plead their case had their 8 message passed through Ewing Cole's evaluative 9 filter. 10 The perception created was that one firm, 11 Southwest, had a leg up on all the rest. Because in 12 the transaction of public business, perception is 13 often reality, we feel it is probably -- we feel it 14 was probably not a wise decision to appoint as judge 15 of a competitive process an entity with an extensive 16 history with one of the competitors. 17 Our third finding is that the product 18 presentations provided the City by Ewing Cole could 19 have been more balanced. A contributing factor, 20 again, could have been the unreasonable two-month 21 timetable for product evaluation and review of such 22 a large amount of technical and physical data. We 23 are concerned about whether the City and sports 24 teams received a balanced presentation of competing 25 products, most of which are relatively new to the 11 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 marketplace in. 3 In carefully reviewing Ewing Cole's report 4 in subsequent letters and in conducting interviews 5 with unsuccessful competing firms, we can understand 6 how an aggrieved party might find shortcomings in 7 Ewing Cole's presentation of his or her product. 8 However, we want to make it clear in criticizing 9 representations by Ewing Cole to the City that we 10 are not implying malicious intent. 11 Many instances are cited in our report 12 where we feel Ewing Cole leveled criticisms at 13 rejected products that could just have well have 14 been leveled against the successful product, 15 NeXturf, but we're not. 16 At other times, Ewing Cole appears to 17 assume facts not in evidence, invalidating their 18 point. I refer you to Appendix B of our report 19 where we cite 22 separate instances in which we feel 20 Ewing Cole presented questionable or inaccurate 21 information, putting NeXtutg in best its light while 22 showing competing products in an unflattering way. 23 We also believe that elements of the 24 City's oversight of the project were inadequate. 25 For example, the City had warnings far in advance 12 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 about drainage problems, particularly at the infield 3 cutouts. As far as back as November 3, 2000, 4 minutes of a pre-bid meeting reflect that Southwest 5 knew that there may be non-draining areas of porous 6 asphalt around the dirt cutouts due to contamination 7 by clay infill. The City told them at that time 8 that a change order in the contract would be issued 9 if such areas were found. 10 We also cite three other times where this 11 same concern was repeated. Although Southwest 12 drilled some additional holes in the asphalt 13 surrounding the cutouts, the most important remedial 14 measure, power-washing the asphalt to free any 15 clogged dirt, was not performed before the August 16 13th game. But whether the actual power-washing 17 task was the responsibility of Southwest, the City, 18 or Phillies ground crews, Southwest had the final 19 responsibility to see that it was documented in the 20 maintenance regimen. 21 Even though the Southwest installation 22 contract calls for them to instruct City workers in 23 the maintenance of NeXturf, using maintenance 24 manuals prepared for that purpose, the contract does 25 not require these manuals until the end of the first 13 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 $354,000 maintenance year. 3 It should be noted that the agreement 4 included an option to extend Southwest's maintenance 5 of the product for two additional one-year terms. 6 Southwest did provide a set of conversion procedures 7 in its bid proposal. These describe a process that 8 employs over 100 people for a period of 16 hours. 9 After the August 13th debacle, Southwest provided a 10 longer series of directions that say nothing about 11 power-washing porous asphalt around the base cutouts 12 at all. 13 A mock conversion, called for in the 14 installation contract, was held in dry weather over 15 five days. That was on July 9th through the 13th. 16 It turned out to be only a partial conversion, and 17 it could not be satisfactorily completed in five 18 days' time. The real thing had to be done in 24 19 hours. 20 In the weeks following the August 13th 21 cancellation, there was a flurry of correspondence 22 among the turf project's principal players -- the 23 City's Capital Program Office, Ewing Cole, and 24 Southwest -- concerning issues, remedial measures, 25 and responsibility. The CPO severely castigated 14 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 both Southwest and Ewing Cole for defects noted 3 during post-cancellation inspections. 4 We feel that although the questions asked 5 by the City after the incident were justified, a 6 more proactive monitoring by the City months before 7 might well have avoided the problem altogether. 8 In answer to the City's questions about 9 percolation tests conducted by Southwest to 10 determine how well the field would drain, Southwest 11 submitted a sketchy report three months after the 12 test was performed and two months after the City 13 signed a certificate of substantial completion, 14 paying Southwest $822,000, which was 45 percent of 15 the contract amount. 16 We feel that Southwest and Ewing Cole were 17 primarily responsible for the successful completion 18 of the turf installation. The City did have a 19 responsibility to monitor them, to ask questions, 20 and to aggressively advocate for the project's 21 success, but this should not mitigate the primary 22 responsibility of these two vendors. 23 The Controller strongly believers that 24 Southwest Recreational Industries should be held 25 responsible for all remedial costs associated with 15 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 this project. The turf installation contracts 3 states the following: "The contractor shall submit 4 its manufacturer's warranty which guarantees the 5 usability and playability of the synthetic turf 6 system for its intended uses for an eight-year 7 period commencing with date of substantial 8 completion." 9 Our understanding of this passage is that 10 Southwest is responsible for ensuring that the 11 condition of the turf is such that it can be used 12 for its intended purpose. Because on August 13th 13 the turf was not in a playable condition, we believe 14 Southwest was responsible for this defect and should 15 be held fully accountable. 16 To date, the City Administration has not 17 billed Southwest for these costs, and we urge them 18 to do so. Controller Saidel has indicated that he 19 will not approve payments concerning this project 20 until the matter is resolved. At the very least, we 21 feel that we are owed $36,000 in added remedial 22 costs assumed by the City. 23 Finally, concerning the issue of 24 sole-sourcing the playing surface bid, Section 8-200 25 of the Home Rule Charter provides that "except in 16 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 the purchase of unique articles, or articles which 3 for any other reason cannot be obtained in the open 4 market, competitive bids shall be secured." 5 The Procurement Commissioner is the 6 responsible officer of the government to make this 7 determination. In this instance, Procurement 8 Commissioner Applebaum told us that he relied on the 9 advice of Ewing Cole, which was paid by the City to 10 exercise its expertise. He had no special 11 independent method of making such a technical 12 judgment. 13 With the stadium turf replacement, the 14 City's case for sole-sourcing rests on two 15 arguments: 16 1. That only one firm had the right 17 product and sufficient experience to accomplish a 18 baseball-to-football conversion within the required 19 time frame; and 20 2. That only one product was thin enough 21 to fit under the Vet's telescopic bleachers without 22 causing serious damage to the bleacher assembly. 23 With the exception of Hummer Grasstiles, 24 no company excluded from the bidding was given 25 enough information and time to adequately understand 17 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 the Vet's conversion process, and even they were not 3 afforded an opportunity to respond to what the City 4 believed to be shortcomings in the conversion 5 process. 6 If a manufacturer asserts that he can 7 accomplish a conversion within a stipulated 8 timeframe and he is willing to back it up with a 9 written guarantee, then the risk is entirely his. 10 The manufacturer is obligated to get the job done, 11 whatever it takes and whatever it costs. 12 FieldTurf told the City it was willing to 13 make such a guarantee; Hummer told the Controller's 14 Office it was willing to make such a guarantees. We 15 noted in our report that the justification for 16 accepting NeXturf, an untried and unproven product, 17 was the manufacturer's willingness to guarantees its 18 performance. 19 Veterans Stadium has telescopic bleachers 20 around two-thirds of the field which are pulled out 21 for football, they're pulled out manually. We went 22 down there and observed the process takes place; 23 it's an extremely labor-intensive process. 24 Ewing Cole and the bleacher manufacturer 25 take the position that deploying the bleachers over 18 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 any product thicker than NeXturf, about 20 feet over 3 the artificial turf, could cause severe damage to 4 the bleacher assembly and possibly unsafe 5 conditions. Under this theory, the City could not 6 install a product thicker than one and a half 7 inches. 8 Although it appears to be a rock-solid 9 justification for sole-source bidding, we have 10 several questions: 11 1. If a physical impediment as critical 12 as bleacher accommodation existed, why was Ewing 13 Cole paid $30,000 of its $200,000 contract to 14 evaluate products, when this could have been reduced 15 to asking a single question, Is your product thicker 16 than one and a half inches? 17 2. If this physical impediment existed, 18 why is it not mentioned in Ewing Cole's October 2000 19 report, and why did the impediment not surface in 20 print until November 10, 2000 in a letter to the 21 City's Capital Program Office. 22 3. If this physical impediment existed, 23 why was there no correspondence with the bleacher 24 manufacturer concerning it until September 2001, two 25 weeks after the Controller's Office raised the 19 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 issue? And why didn't the manufacturer tell the 3 Controller's Office it had not discussed the issue 4 with Ewing Cole before the turf replacement contract 5 was awarded? 6 Our fourth point is if the bleachers have 7 an accommodation limit, why is it that this limit 8 coincides exactly with the thickness of NeXturf? 9 And so the City's case for sole-source 10 bidding rests on two arguments: Conversion time and 11 bleacher accommodation. The first is easily 12 answered with the manufacturer's guarantee; the 13 second raises an endless series of questions. 14 There now are many manufacturers in the 15 playing turf field. We feel that they should have 16 been given a fair opportunity to present their 17 wares. The City should not have drafted bid 18 specifications so narrowly that they excluded all 19 but one product, and should instead have added the 20 words, quote, or equal, end quote, allowing 21 additional competition to emerge. 22 Our report contains 11 recommendations to 23 be considered by the City Administration and by City 24 Council. These, we believe, will strengthen checks 25 and balances concerning sole-source bidding and help 20 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 ensure that capital projects are carefully planned 3 and better monitored. 4 We appreciate the chance to present this 5 report to you today and look forward to any 6 questions you have. 7 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: That was 8 quite comprehensive. 9 Colleague Councilman Rizzo. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Other than the 11 Controller's Office, as you know, there's been a lot 12 of hesitancy to discuss the problem that occurred on 13 game day. Could you just focus -- you did focus on 14 it, but I just want to make sure for the record that 15 it's very clear on your opinion what occurred on 16 game day when the game was cancelled. 17 MR. RADWANSKI: I think it's rather 18 simple: That there were problems at the base 19 cutouts the where product was not draining properly, 20 the City and the contractor knew well in advance 21 that those problems existed, and proper measures 22 were not taken to ensure that this would not occur. 23 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: And, again, who should 24 have the responsibility for any expenses associated 25 with the response that the City was required to 21 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 perform? 3 MR. RADWANSKI: In the opinion of the 4 Controller's Office, the responsibility for any 5 problems that occurred at that time were soley the 6 responsibility of the contractor, Southwest. 7 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Thank you. 8 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Thank you. 9 And, therefore, they should bear the cost? 10 MR. RADWANSKI: That's correct. 11 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: What do you 12 believe is the lesson learned from where your office 13 sits as it relates to not having to cross this 14 bridge again? 15 MR. RADWANSKI: I think that one of the 16 lessons that we've learned is that additional time 17 is needed to do a project of this nature -- this is 18 not something that should come in -- a lot of 19 forethought should be exercised before a product of 20 this nature is undertaken. 21 Another lesson I think we learned is that 22 City contracts, including the contract that the City 23 entered in with its engineering firm, Ewing Cole, 24 should be better monitored to make sure that they're 25 doing what they're supposed to do within the text of 22 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 the contract. 3 And a third lesson I think would be 4 that...uh, I'm trying to think what the third lesson 5 is. 6 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: You say 7 "better monitored." Define what you mean by that 8 because better monitored from the Controller's 9 Office may be entirely different from what's viewed 10 in the Procurement Office. 11 MR. RADWANSKI: I think that better 12 monitoring means that if product evaluations are 13 supposed to be conducted, that somebody from the 14 City take a look to see if the products were 15 properly evaluated, were they not, what measures did 16 they take to evaluate the products, and so forth 17 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Is there any 18 latitude for the City Controller's Office to share 19 with any City agency recommendations like the one 20 you've just given, period, with hopes that it would 21 be strongly considered? 22 MR. RADWANSKI: Yeah, this is kind of a 23 theme of many of our audits. There's plenty of room 24 for that recommendation to be accepted in all areas 25 of City government, in my opinion. 23 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Councilman, 3 anything else? 4 Thank you, members of the panel from the 5 City's Controller's Office. 6 MR. RADWANSKI: Thank you very much. 7 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: You're very, 8 very welcome. 9 Next up, the procurement policy of the 10 City of Philadelphia and the procurement of NeXturf 11 for Veterans Stadium. We would like to invite up 12 Commissioner Louis Applebaum of the Procurement 13 Department; Veterans Stadium Director Greg Grillone 14 with the Recreation Department; and City Solicitor 15 Paul McCarthy, Divisional Deputy City Solicitor; as 16 well as Christopher McCabe, Deputy City Solicitor. 17 (Witnesses come forward.) 18 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Good 19 afternoon, gentlemen. Welcome and proceed. 20 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Good afternoon. 21 Councilwoman and members. I am Louis Applebaum, 22 Procurement Commissioner of the City of 23 Philadelphia, and I am here to testify on a 24 resolution covering the NeXturf procurement for 25 Veterans Stadium and reviewing and evaluating the 24 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 City's sole-source process and policy. 3 I have previously submitted to your 4 offices this printed testimony, along with two 5 binders of information concerning the above 6 subjects -- the two binders are here if you don't 7 have them, if you need them. 8 Binder No. 1 is the NeXturf procurement 9 and Binder No. 2 is the sole-source bids, fiscal 10 years '99, '00 and '01. 11 This is a summary of the procurement 12 process as it relates to the public works contract 13 awarded to Southwest Recreational Industries. This 14 contract for the playing field of Veterans Stadium 15 was a sole-source bid requiring a product 16 manufacturer by Southwest with the brand name of 17 "NeXturf." 18 Around the middle of the year 2000, a 19 determination was made to acquire a new playing 20 field for Veterans Stadium. The Capital Program 21 Office retained through a professional services 22 contract Ewing Cole Cherry Brott, Architects and 23 Engineers, headquartered in Philadelphia. They were 24 assigned the duty of evaluating all of the available 25 products and alternative to replace the Astroturf at 25 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 Veterans Stadium. They were charged with preparing 3 a complete survey and an analysis of all products 4 available at the time and making a final 5 recommendation to the City of Philadelphia for the 6 product we should procure. 7 Ewing Cole, after extensive field visits, 8 study, presentations, and testing, submitted to the 9 City their report entitled "Playing Field Surface 10 evaluation." This report was dated October 2000 and 11 detailed a short list of potential products. The 12 report is included in the binders. 13 On October 17, 2000, the Procurement 14 Department, the Capital Programs Office, Finance 15 Department, and the Recreation Department met with 16 representatives of Ewing Cole to review the report. 17 Questions were presented to Ewing Cole and 18 discussions were held. 19 I personally requested that Ewing Cole 20 provide, in addition to the report, the reasons that 21 certain products were not short-listed in their 22 report. Mr. Rick Tustin requested Ewing Cole to 23 summarize their original review of the SprinTurf 24 product, which was not included in the Ewing Cole 25 original short list. 26 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 A letter dated November the 10th was 3 received from Ewing Cole detailing the requested 4 information. On November the 15th, Ewing Cole 5 presented a letter responding to my request from 6 October 17th. This letter identified all of the 7 products that were evaluated and specified why 8 certain products not short-listed. 9 At the conclusion of the City's meeting 10 with Ewing Cole on October 17th and after the City's 11 complete evaluation of the reports, a recommendation 12 was made by the Capital Program Office. The Capital 13 Program Office recommended that the City of 14 Philadelphia issue a sole-source bid for the 15 procurement of the NeXturf product. All in 16 attendance at the meeting concurred with the 17 recommendation. 18 A subsequent meeting was held with Ewing 19 Cole, City Representative, Philadelphia Eagles and 20 Philadelphia Phillies at which time the teams were 21 informed of the product selection. 22 The Philadelphia Home Rule Charter, 23 Chapter 8-2000, "Contracts," states that unique 24 articles and other articles which cannot be obtained 25 in the open market are not subject to the 27 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 requirements of competitive bidding. The product 3 NeXturf was considered to be unique to the needs of 4 Veterans Stadium due to the conversion requirements 5 and the multipurpose use of the stadium. 6 The NeXturf product is only manufactured 7 by Southwest Industries and has many attributes that 8 are proprietary to that company; therefore, the 9 decision was made to consider this a sole-source 10 bid. 11 The Procurement Department, in conjunction 12 with the Capital Programs Office, issued the project 13 manual and related sole-source bid documents to 14 Southwest, with a bid opening date of November the 15 6th. The bid was open on that date, and Southwest 16 submitted a bid for 1.89 million, plus additional 17 funds for maintenance. 18 On November the 13th, the Procurement 19 Department issued an official award letter to 20 Southwest Industries for this procurement. 21 Installation of the product commenced the beginning 22 of calendar year 2001 and completed prior to the 23 start of the baseball season in April of that year. 24 I have enclosed for your review Binder No. 25 1, entitled "NeXturf Procurement," which includes 28 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 all of the previously-mentioned documents, bids, and 3 contracts. 4 On the subject of sole-source bids, I 5 repeat that the Philadelphia Home Rule Charter 6 states that unique articles and other articles which 7 cannot be obtained in the open market are not 8 subject to the requirements of competitive bidding. 9 Enclosed in Binder No. 2 -- that's the 10 blue binder -- is a report of the last three fiscal 11 years of all sole-source bids awarded by the 12 Procurement Department. You will note that the 13 chart on Page 2 indicates that the sole-source award 14 dollars as a percentage of the total awards was 15 2.95 percent, 1.06 percent, and 2.94 percent in the 16 years '99, 2000 mand 2001. 17 Each time an operating department requests 18 a sole-source bid to meet their requirements, the 19 policy and procedure of the Procurement Department 20 is for the requesting department to submit a 21 sole-source request justification memo to be 22 approved by the Procurement Department prior to the 23 issuance of any sole-source bids. The policy of the 24 Procurement Department is to have a deputy 25 procurement commissioner review these justification 29 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 memos and to approve or reject, as the case may be. 3 Included in Binder 2 are all of the 4 sole-source recommendation memos that were received 5 on all approved sole-source bid requests for those 6 years. In every case, you will see the reason and 7 the justification for each request. You will also 8 note that each one has been approved by the Deputy 9 Commissioner. 10 This concludes my testimony. I will be 11 glad to answer any questions the Council may have 12 regarding my testimony this afternoon. 13 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Councilman 14 Rizzo, would you like to? 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Thank you, thank you, 16 Madam Chair. 17 Commissioner, you described the 18 sole-source procurement process, so let me confirm 19 it. Each time an operating department requests a 20 sole-source bid to meet their requirements, the 21 policy and procedures of the Procurement Department 22 is for the requesting department to submit a 23 sole-source request justification memo to be 24 approved by the Procurement Department prior -- I 25 repeat, prior -- to the issuance of any sole-source 30 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 bids. 3 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: That is correct. 4 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Does the blue binder 5 contain all of the sole-source Procurement 6 Department approvals for fiscal year '99, '00, and 7 '01? 8 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: That is correct. 9 Every sole-source request that was approved is in 10 the binder. It's the memo, the original memo that 11 was issued by the operating departments, all of 12 their reasons and justifications. Some have our 13 notes on them and a final stamp of approval with a 14 date. And based on that, a sole-source bid was 15 authorized. 16 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: For example, the 17 approval for the replacement of seat parts for 18 Veterans Stadium was such a prior approval, and it's 19 obviously in the blue binder. 20 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: I assume so, yes. 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: The next document in 22 the blue binder is NeXturf sole-source procurement. 23 The NeXturf sole-source procurement was made 24 November the 13th. 25 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Correct. 31 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Okay. What was the 3 date of the approval? 4 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: I don't have 5 that. Do you have it there or do you want to direct 6 me to where -- 7 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Yeah. Well, I think -- 8 9 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Councilman, let 10 me explain on that particular -- 11 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Well, let me -- 12 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: We need the 13 answer to the question first. 14 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Yeah, please answer the 15 question, let's get the answer to the question. The 16 NeXturf sole-source procurement was made on November 17 the 13th? 18 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Correct. 19 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: We need you to answer 20 the question, please: What is the date of the 21 approval since prior-to is required according to the 22 policy that you just described? 23 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Can you direct me 24 to the -- is it in this book? 25 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Yeah, it's in here. 32 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 And to help you with that, the approval is dated 3 September 21, 2001. 4 Let me have the binder brought over to 5 you. I know it's difficult to locate that. 6 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Okay. 7 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Let me have the binder 8 brought over to you. 9 (Staff person delivers blue 10 binder to Commissioner Applebaum.) 11 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Okay. 12 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I know it's difficult 13 to locate that. 14 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: This one is the 15 replacement parts for Vets Stadium. 16 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: The next page. 17 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: The next page is 18 dated September 21st. It was a memo directed to me 19 by Harry Hillock, the Deputy Procurement 20 Commissioner. And the decision to award a 21 sole-source contract for Veterans Stadium playing 22 surface was made as a result of an engineering study 23 conducted by Ewing Cole on October 17th. A meeting 24 was held with the Capital Program, Recreation 25 Department. At that time, discussions were held on 33 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 the engineering report, and it was concluded that 3 the only viable option for the playing field was the 4 NeXturf process. Based on that, the Capital 5 Programs Office prepared a sole-source bid to 6 purchase the playing surface from Southwest 7 Recreation Industries. 8 That happens to be dated September the 9 21st, that's correct. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: What year, sir? What 11 year? 12 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: 2001. 13 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: And the NeXturf 14 sole-source procurement was made when? November 15 13th, the year 2000. So obviously, this violates 16 your policy. 17 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Correct. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Could you explain? 19 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Sure. 20 The acquisition of the sole-source 21 procurement of NeXturf was one that the Procurement 22 Department and the Procurement Commissioner was 23 intimately involved in in making that decision. As 24 stated in my testimony, I met with the department on 25 October 17th, I met with Ewing Cole. I asked 34 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 questions, I received additional information. 3 That was sort of -- much different than 4 our normal sole-source bid where the Procurement 5 Commissioner or the Procurement Department are not 6 intimately involved in it. I was intimately 7 involved totally in that process and concurred with 8 the recommendation of the Capital Programs Office. 9 Therefore, at that point in time, there was not a 10 document created. 11 When I was putting this program together, 12 I noted that we didn't issue a request document at 13 that time. The request document was actually me 14 personally being there to make sure the process was 15 going. I suggested to Mr. Hillock, the deputy 16 procurement commissioner, that to complete the 17 record, we should put a document in this book 18 referring to the sole source for NeXturf on why we 19 did it. I didn't have him back-date the document, 20 so I wouldn't do that, and we dated the document 21 when we actually talked about it. 22 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: So because of your 23 personal involvement, there was either an 24 intentional oversight or just an oversight to not 25 follow the procurement process to the letter. 35 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: That's correct. 3 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: So a mistake was made? 4 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: No, it was not a 5 mistake. It was because, as you stated, I was 6 personally involved in that decision. I worked with 7 Capital Programs Office and our consultant to concur 8 with their finding and, therefore, did not issue a 9 request, a written sole-source request to myself. 10 That's what it would have amounted to. 11 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: But doesn't that 12 document come from the operating department also 13 making the request? 14 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: That is correct. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: So It wouldn't have 16 been coming from you alone. 17 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Well, they made 18 their request verbally at the meeting. At that 19 meeting, October the 17th, when all people there, we 20 all concurred in the direction that we were going to 21 go. 22 So there was not a written document; there 23 was a meeting of the minds, a meeting held at that 24 time, and we came up with that decision to go with 25 the sole-source bid. 36 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Thank you. 3 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: And later, in 4 order to complete the package, I suggested that we 5 write up a memo and include it in this book. 6 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Just a minute, 7 Commissioner. 8 Commissioner, obviously, you have a paper 9 trail for a reason, for accountability. In this 10 case, there is not at least an appropriate -- and 11 again, you know, you're telling me because of your 12 personal involvement, that that didn't 13 necessitate -- the procedure on almost every other 14 sole-source item, you're telling me that in your 15 years as commissioner, this is the first time you 16 were ever totally involved in a procurement, a 17 sole-source procurement? 18 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: I would believe 19 that in the last three years covered by these 20 documents, this is the first one of such a major 21 significance that I was personally involved in the 22 decision-making process. 23 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: But, again, to end this 24 conversation on this particular point, the policy 25 was not followed, you realized it wasn't, and you 37 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 had a document prepared, dated in the next calendar 3 year to make the file complete. 4 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: The date that I 5 came to the conclusion that it should have been 6 done, I did not back-date it; I did it based on what 7 had happened at that particular time. We were 8 putting to book together, I said, Hey, we don't have 9 a memo in here, let's put one in. And it was 10 prepared, dated September of 2001. 11 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: September 21st of 2001. 12 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Correct. 13 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: And the purchase, 14 again, was made November 13th of the year 2000. 15 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Correct. 16 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Certainly, 18 Councilman. 19 One follow-up question. On Page 3 next to 20 the last paragraph of your testimony, you quote the 21 Philadelphia Home Rule Charter Chapter 8-200, and 22 the bottom line is that you move to a sole source 23 when you cannot find the products on the open 24 market. What would be your response to those who 25 believe that certain products -- that like-products 38 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 could be found on the open market? And more 3 specifically, what factors drove you to the decision 4 that the department had to sole-source? 5 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: In this 6 particular case, our professional consultants that 7 we hired to help us come to this conclusion as to 8 what we should buy indicated to us that this product 9 was the only product, the sole product, that had the 10 attributes and was engineered to be able to be used 11 in a stadium, a multi-use stadium -- 12 baseball-football conversions, and be able to safely 13 handle the temporary stands that sit out in the 14 outfield or around the stadium. And we were 15 concerned, and their concern was that those 16 temporary stands would ride safely over the surface 17 and not destroy the stands and not destroy the 18 surface. 19 One other thing I'd like to comment on. 20 We heard earlier today that if the company 21 guaranteed us and gave us a guarantee that the 22 conversion would work, we had nothing to worry 23 about, but in reality, if we were converting the 24 stadium at a particular time on a day before a 25 baseball game and it didn't work, the guarantee 39 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 would not really help us get the baseball or 3 football game going, so where a guarantees is 4 somewhat useful, in this particular case, at a Vets 5 Stadium where you have an event day in and day out, 6 a guarantee would not let the baseball team play. 7 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Councilman, 8 a follow-up? 9 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Yes. 10 Commissioner, first of all, I want to 11 thank you for your service to the City of 12 Philadelphia. And even though this issue has been 13 very embarrassing to the City of Philadelphia, and I 14 know that we've had some other negative issues 15 surface, but I want to congratulate you because I 16 understand that the stadium has been very successful 17 in some other areas -- in the area of the food 18 services and -- but I'd just like you to take -- 19 even though it's digressing for the moment, I'd like 20 you to have the opportunity -- and for the folks, 21 when I thank the Commissioner for his service to the 22 City, he'll be leaving sometime -- the 11th of 23 January. 24 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: January, right. 25 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: And, again, I thank you 40 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 for that, but I want you to maybe take the 3 opportunity just to talk about some of the successes 4 that you've had there, and we all ought to thank 5 Greg Grillone because he makes it all work down 6 there. 7 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Right, thank you, 8 thank you very much, Councilman. 9 As part of the Vets Stadium package, we're 10 proud of what occurred last year during the Phillies 11 baseball season and also the Eagles football season. 12 To date, we've had seven home games with the Eagles, 13 we had a whole baseball season, and this is the 14 first time that I can remember in history that we 15 have not had an unfavorable article in the 16 newspaper, the Inquirer or the Daily News, 17 particularly by Joe Six-pack, of a problem at the 18 stadium such as short beers or dirty food or 19 unclean. We have not had an article. 20 Unfortunately, we have not had a positive article, 21 but newspapers would rather write negatives and not 22 positives. 23 But in this particular baseball season, 24 based on the contract that we signed with Aramark 25 before the season started, our sales -- and the 41 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 change in the contract with a different 3 configuration. Our sales increased $3.9 million, or 4 35 percent, over the previous year. 5 The commission income, where the City of 6 Philadelphia benefits, increased by $1.6 million, or 7 a 38 percent increase. 8 The attendance was up 26 percent because 9 they had a better season. 10 One of the key numbers is the 11 sales-per-capita -- that's the amount of money taken 12 in per each individual -- increased from $8.53 to 13 $9.14, or a 7.2 percent increase. 14 So all in all, the Aramark services with 15 the cooperation of Vets Stadium and Greg Grillone 16 and his folks did a wonderful job, and we're very 17 pleased that a contract that was issued to Aramark 18 that was somewhat contentious, as you recall, ended 19 up being very successful, and they did a real good 20 job. 21 And we hadn't really had a good year 22 there, and now the Phillies also had a good year 23 playing on NeXturf. They had a good season; they 24 had one problem. 25 And I don't have to mention that the 42 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 Eagles are 9 and 4 this year, and they played many 3 games on NeXturf. After August 13th, there hasn't 4 been one specific problem that has arose. 5 But thank you very much, Councilman, for 6 allowing me to talk about that. 7 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Thank you. 8 Madam Chair? 9 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Surely. 10 One final question, Mr. Applebaum. I'm 11 just trying to recall testimony from the last 12 hearing. I believe it was indicated that the City 13 of Philadelphia paid over $13 a square foot for the 14 NeXturf products, approximately? 15 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: I -- I believe 16 that is correct. I don't have that figure here. 17 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Okay. Well, 18 there is the fact that another user of NeXturf, 19 Wissahickon High School, played approximately $8 per 20 square foot. Help us understand why there would be 21 that kind of discrepancy. 22 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: I am not aware of 23 those facts. I don't know what the other school 24 paid, but I believe -- I believe that later today, 25 NeXturf is going to testify. I would ask them the 43 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 question, and I'll be very anxious to hear their 3 question. 4 It could be because of the multi-use 5 stadium, I don't know, but why don't we kind of pass 6 to NeXturf. I'd like you to ask that question. 7 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN: For sure, we will do 8 that. 9 As a matter of procedure, when your office 10 reviews bids, do you look to see what their history, 11 track-record pricing is and other like-areas? 12 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Yes. We always 13 look for a track record and success. We look for 14 financial strength of the company, we look for their 15 references. And that's pretty much the way we 16 evaluate all of the vendors that we do business 17 with. 18 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Okay then. 19 What is the Department's policy with 20 regards to sole-sourcing and allowing the minority 21 MBE/WBE community of the City to participate? 22 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: The MBEC Minority 23 Business Enterprise Council headed up by Mr. Jim 24 Roundtree, Deputy Finance Commissioner, and 25 Procurement work very close together. A decision 44 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 was made a few years ago that due to the small 3 amount of sole-source bids and the fact that the 4 bids are going to companies who are manufacturing a 5 product specifically, MBEC came to the conclusion 6 that there was not a potential for them in this 7 particular arena, and they have elected not to 8 receive from Procurement sole-source bids for 9 range-setting. 10 And that has been our policy. And to 11 date, we have not presented to MBEC sole-source bids 12 for range-settings, and that was based on their 13 request. 14 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Very well. 15 Okay, then, Commissioner. 16 Any other members of the panel have 17 anything they care to share? 18 (No response.) 19 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: All right 20 then. Thank you very much, gentlemen. 21 COMMISSIONER APPLEBAUM: Thank you very 22 much. 23 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: You're 24 welcome. 25 We want to welcome Southwest Recreational 45 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 Industries, Inc. to the podium: Reed Seaton, 3 President; and Jim Griffith, Attorney. 4 (Witnesses come forward.) 5 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Welcome. 6 MR. GRIFFITH: Good afternoon, Madam Chair 7 and Councilman Rizzo. 8 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Welcome. 9 Good afternoon. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Good afternoon. 11 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN: Please state your 12 full names for the record and proceed with your 13 testimony. 14 MR. GRIFFITH: My name is James Griffith, 15 Esquire, and I'm an attorney representing Southwest 16 Recreational Industries. 17 MR. SEATON: I'm Reed James Seaton, 18 President of Southwest Recreational Industries. 19 MR. GRIFFITH: Madam Chair, we have no 20 prepared remarks today, but we would like to make a 21 couple points at the beginning prior to any 22 questions that you may have. 23 The first thing is we note that my clients 24 did travel here voluntarily twice from Texas, and we 25 would like that to be noted by the Council. 46 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 Second of all, as Councilman Rizzo has 3 noted before, there are some sensitive issues that 4 have arisen in prior meetings of this Council, and 5 we'd prefer not to get into those issues again; 6 namely, the conversion and August 13 and any other 7 issues that may arise in any potential litigation. 8 So we will defer any questions in that regard. 9 Third, we would like to reserve about five 10 minutes of our time at the end to respond to any 11 comments that our competitors may make about our 12 product, and we will be brief in those remarks and 13 we would hope that you would accommodate that 14 request. 15 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: The sponsor 16 of the bill -- I certainly have no problem with that 17 as Chair, but I'll leave that, however, to the 18 sponsor of the bill. 19 Councilman? 20 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: We'll accommodate you. 21 MR. GRIFFITH: Thank you very much. I 22 appreciate that. 23 A few comments on the auditor's report 24 first. We note that the City Controller does have a 25 stamp on the actual contract that was awarded that 47 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 does say "verified one bid," so we're a little 3 puzzled as to why the controller at this point is 4 suddenly raising the issue of no knowledge of one 5 bid, but I guess that can be addressed at another 6 time. 7 We also note that the contract did go 8 through the Law Department and its procedures there. 9 The third thing we'd like to note about 10 the auditor's report is that you did not get the 11 complete report -- at least it does not appear that 12 way from the testimony of the auditor. We are aware 13 that there has been a subsequent testing done of our 14 product that shows that it did conform to all of the 15 specifications that were required, and we would just 16 like that noted for the record. 17 And at this time, if you have any 18 questions, again, subject to my earlier caution, 19 we'd be happy to try and address them. 20 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Very well. 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Could you explain why 22 your product was the -- what is different about your 23 product, in your own words, your description of your 24 product, versus anything else that's on this table? 25 MR. GRIFFITH: I'll let Mr. Seaton address 48 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 that in a moment. I would like to note that we were 3 not asked to make any determination as to uniqueness 4 as to our product or why it might be a sole-source 5 bid, but I'm happy to allow Mr. Seaton to talk about 6 NeXturf in general. 7 MR. SEATON: The significant difference is 8 the product is designed to be convertible, it's 9 designed to be able to play multiple sports on. And 10 if you wish to take pieces of it up and roll it up 11 and put it away and bring back at a later day in a 12 relatively short period of time, you can do that 13 without damaging the product. 14 And if you allow me to approach, I might 15 be able to make a comparison. 16 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Surely, sir. 17 MR. SEATON: So when you look at the other 18 products that are here today and if you were to -- 19 which I won't, but if I was to tip this upside 20 (inaudible, off-mic). 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Talk into the mic. 22 MR. SEATON: As an example, if you were to 23 take this field and to try to move it, pieces of 24 it -- so if I turned this upside down, which I won't 25 do, 'cause then someone will have to sweep the 49 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 floor, every piece of rubber particulate and sand 3 will fall out. And you might feel how heavy it is. 4 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Yes. 5 MR. SEATON: So when 30-some-odd percent 6 of the field has to be moved, it's a monumental 7 task. And that characteristic is the same with all 8 field systems. And likewise, we sell a tall-pile 9 fill artificial carpet also. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Could you -- I'll wait 11 till you return to the table. 12 After the first game was played -- we'll 13 get away from the day that the problem developed. 14 All of the controversy with the athletes about the 15 surface being slippery -- I think that they probably 16 spent more money on shoes on that particular game 17 day. There was all of this controversy about the 18 slipperiness of the playing surface. Did that have 19 anything to do with NeXturf or was that a different 20 issue? 21 MR. GRIFFITH: Councilman, are there 22 specific players that you're referring to? I mean, 23 it would help us answer the question if you could 24 identify them. 25 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: The entire -- in our 50 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 immediate year on every sports show was a different 3 athlete from the Eagles and the visiting team 4 complaining about the slipperiness of the surface, 5 and that problem seemed to go away. What exactly -- 6 are you aware of the complaints about the 7 slipperiness of the playing surface and why those -- 8 do you have any information on why those accusations 9 were made? Did it have anything to do, in your 10 opinion, with NeXturf; or was there another issue 11 associated with that complaint? 12 MR. GRIFFITH: I'm sorry, Councilman, I 13 think there's a number of different questions there. 14 Maybe if you could help us focus on the one you want 15 us to answer. 16 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: What happened -- why 17 were there complaints about your product being too 18 slippery to play on and they were concerned that 19 there could be a career-ending injury associated 20 with NeXturf? 21 MR. GRIFFITH: I think you would have to 22 ask the player's opinion as to why. 23 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Well, apparently there 24 was a response from Southwest when that question was 25 asked. 51 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 MR. GRIFFITH: I'm not aware of that 3 prepared response, Councilman. 4 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: You're not? 5 MR. GRIFFITH: No, sir. 6 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Are you aware of the 7 controversy about the slipperiness of the surface? 8 MR. GRIFFITH: Not from any specific 9 player, no, I'm not. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: In general, are you 11 aware of it? 12 MR. GRIFFITH: I think Mr. Seaton can 13 address it. 14 MR. SEATON: The NeXturf is specifically 15 designed to replicate a tightly mowed natural-grass 16 field, and we believe that we've accomplished that 17 significantly. 18 And the fact is that we haven't had any 19 playing season-ending injuries on the field, and 20 that's what is most important to the players. And I 21 believe that as the players got used to the field, 22 as we look at the games that have been played very 23 successfully, and I think we could go back and look 24 at the Dallas Cowboys game where it rained almost 23 25 hours consecutively and they played the game in the 52 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 rain and actually, there was very little, if any, 3 slippage related to the artificial grass NeXturf. 4 So we, quite frankly, are quite proud that 5 the field is playing basically up to our standards, 6 which means it's playing up to the specifications, 7 which is what we promised to the City and to the 8 players, and that we've had a great season and we 9 haven't had any bad injuries. 10 And that is what's unique about NeXturf is 11 that it allows you to play like natural grass but 12 it's artificial and it's convertible. And more 13 importantly, it's suitable not only for football but 14 it's also suitable for baseball. And you have a 15 dual-purpose stadium. 16 We certainly feel quite proud of the 17 NeXturf installation in Vets Stadium and that it has 18 performed exceedingly to our desires in this 19 environment. 20 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Could you please 21 comment on that. This environment, this 22 application, is this the first type -- is this the 23 first time NeXturf was installed in a dual-purpose 24 facility and in this environment? Could you explain 25 the uniqueness of this installation of this product 53 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 at this stadium? 3 MR. GRIFFITH: Again, Councilman, there 4 were two questions there, and I'm not sure which one 5 you want him to answer. 6 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Could you 7 please answer them both. 8 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Answer them both one at 9 a time. 10 MR. GRIFFITH: The first one again, 11 please, sir? 12 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Your product, could you 13 describe the uniqueness of this particular 14 installation in this environment at this facility. 15 Has this type of installation ever occurred before 16 it came to Philadelphia? 17 MR. SEATON: Yes. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Where? 19 MR. SEATON: PGE Park, Portland -- 20 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Baseball, football? 21 MR. SEATON: Baseball, football, and 22 soccer. 23 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Identical -- 24 professional football? 25 MR. SEATON: College football. 54 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: College football. Any 3 difference from college football? 4 MR. SEATON: The average NFL player, I 5 believe, is 24 years old; and in college, they're 6 22. So about two years. 7 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: So you equate that as 8 being a similar environment, a similar installation? 9 MR. SEATON: Yes. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Apples and apples? 11 MR. SEATON: That and the fact that the 12 Atlanta Falcons have a full-size 95,000 square foot 13 indoor practice facility that they're utilizing. 14 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Indoor, big difference. 15 I mean, there's a big difference between being 16 outside and outside, you'd agree, right? 17 MR. SEATON: I don't necessarily 18 understand your statement, sir. 19 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: The question is that 20 there's a difference. You talked about the day of 21 the Dallas game when it rained, the results would 22 have been a lot different inside versus outside. 23 MR. GRIFFITH: Well, I guess there would 24 have been no rain. 25 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Exactly, you got it. 55 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 That's exactly the question. 3 Madam Chair? 4 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Yes? 5 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Anything? 6 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Yes. I do 7 need to follow up with the question that was 8 proposed to the procurement commissioner. Our 9 records or homework reflects that the City of 10 Philadelphia paid over $13 a square foot for the 11 NeXturf products here; however, at the Wissahickon 12 High School, who also purchased a football field, 13 NeXturf. Southwest information says that they paid 14 $8 a square foot. 15 Help us understand the discrepancy. 16 MR. SEATON: Well, A, I'm not sure that 17 they paid $8, but I can give you some significant 18 differences. 19 Your field was a complete removal and 20 replacement. The job was done in the winter. I 21 believe we paid $70.72 per hour per labor dollar 22 that we paid inside the stadium. We had to build 23 the entire stadium, it's a custom fit. It also has 24 a running track, you know, which is the warning 25 track, and there are additional pieces. So the 56 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 field is significantly larger, maybe almost twice as 3 big. 4 So you -- I mean, I'm not sure what square 5 footage basis you're using for the calculation. 6 We moved snow every single day, I believe, 7 in the first 45 days of the job to work, so we had a 8 snow piling contract to move the snow off the 9 worksite. 10 And at the Wissahickon facility, it is a 11 rectangular, 32 panels, American football, and it's 12 a very standard installation. 13 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: That helps 14 explain the discrepancy. 15 MR. SEATON: I would be happy to show you 16 the payroll records, which, I believe, are close to 17 $800,000 for this installation. 18 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Very well. 19 Councilman Rizzo, a follow-up? 20 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: What was the warranty 21 associated with Astroturf8 I believe it's referred 22 to, the original Astroturf that you ripped out. 23 What credit did we get because it was only in its 24 fifth year, and I believe there was a warranty or -- 25 what credit did you give the City or what credit did 57 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 the City receive as a result of the short life of 3 the system that was in there? 4 MR. SEATON: Can we narrow the question a 5 little bit? 6 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: How much money did the 7 City receive credit for the system that was only in 8 its fifth year of service when I believe it had a 9 few more years left to its life and possibly even a 10 warranty associated with it? 11 MR. GRIFFITH: Perhaps the Councilman 12 could explain the basis for the statement that there 13 were a few years left in the life of the carpet, and 14 then perhaps we can address the question. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: That's the question. 16 The question is, what -- 17 MR. GRIFFITH: Well, you're representing 18 that there was additional life left in the carpet, 19 and we're trying to find the basis for the 20 statement. 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: All right, the question 22 is -- again, I'll ask it this way: I understand 23 that the initial surface had some problems with the 24 seams. How much did you charge the City of 25 Philadelphia to repair the existing Astroturf that 58 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 was there? What was the charges -- explain the 3 business arrangement that you had with the 4 Recreation Department, the City, in repairing the 5 old surface so it could be used until the new 6 surface was installed? And since the existing 7 surface had, I believe, from my notes here, that it 8 still had a warranty period associated with it. Did 9 the City benefit, did the City get a credit for any 10 of the unused life of the existing surface? 11 MR. SEATON: I don't believe the City 12 asked for a credit. 13 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: They didn't ask for a 14 credit. 15 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Did not? 16 MR. SEATON: It did not, Madam. 17 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: The City did not ask 18 for a credit? 19 MR. SEATON: That's my belief, yes. 20 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: And given 21 the circumstances as have been described by my 22 colleague, the City did not ask for a credit. Do 23 you believe the City deserves a credit? 24 MR. SEATON: I do not. I think we're 25 mixing -- you know, use and warranty are different 59 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 issues. I mean, I'm not sure if you've ever 3 actually stayed the night and watched a conversion 4 process. I mean, have you ever spent the night out 5 there and watched the 100 people work 24 hours? 6 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I've seen the 7 conversion process. 8 MR. SEATON: Well, unfortunately, I've -- 9 or fortunately, I've had that opportunity numerous 10 times this year. And I think in order to shed light 11 on the field and maybe historical comments about the 12 Vet playing field, you would find that a lot of 13 those basically are based on the conversion process. 14 Forklifts and trucks and bleachers and buggies, and 15 a tremendous amount -- you know, up to maybe 30, 40 16 large vehicles driving all over the field and 17 dragging out huge bleacher sections and parking them 18 on the field. 19 And so I think that what you find is that 20 we build a field that would last eight years, but 21 you tend to put more use on the field and you 22 prematurely basically age the field. It's not that 23 the field is not playable; you basically are 24 damaging it at a more accelerated rate. 25 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Is that 60 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 factor or provision put in the language of the 3 contract, that if you use it more than -- 4 MR. SEATON: It's not use, Madam, it's 5 basically damage, it's destruction of the product 6 basically, I think, would be a more appropriate 7 terminology. 8 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Okay. 9 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Let's go back to the 10 original playing surface. I understand that you 11 came and made some repairs -- the company came and 12 made some repairs to the original playing surface. 13 Now, I'm going back there because you're telling me 14 that the field was damaged, and I understand that 15 after the seams, the Velcro seams were repaired, 16 that playing surface, the Astroturf, met the terms 17 and conditions, and we have a matter of record. The 18 stadium manager said the field at that time met the 19 terms and conditions of the lease agreement that we 20 had with both of these franchises. 21 So I'm a little confused that you're 22 telling me that because of the way we treated the 23 surface that it was damaged but it met the terms and 24 conditions of the lease. 25 MR. GRIFFITH: Councilman, I don't think 61 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 that's his testimony; I think that's another 3 gentleman's testimony. 4 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: But I'm asking you. At 5 the time you made -- when you made the repairs to -- 6 and this is to you, this question. When you made 7 the repairs to the existing Astroturf, when you left 8 there, was that playing surface in good repair? 9 MR. GRIFFITH: Can you be more specific? 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Was it damaged when you 11 left the stadium, after you made the repairs that 12 you made? And I believe that there was a purchase 13 order associated with those repairs. All I'm asking 14 you is when you finished those repairs before you 15 came back with your crew to rip out that existing 16 playing surface, what was the condition of it and 17 was it in good repair when you left there? 18 MR. GRIFFITH: Again, I'm having trouble 19 with "in good repair." I mean, you're asking, did 20 they make repairs? 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Your client made a 22 statement that the field was damaged. After the 23 repairs were made, was it still damaged? 24 MR. SEATON: I actually think, 25 Councilmember, what I said is that due to the 62 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 uniqueness of the stadium, you tend to destroy the 3 product at a more accelerated rate than other 4 stadiums due to the conversionability of the 5 facility. 6 Now, because you and I spoke on the 7 telephone, as you probably recall, I wasn't aware of 8 the repairs, so are we speaking of this $25,000 9 repair job? 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I'm talking about a 11 repair job. 12 MR. SEATON: That was the number that you 13 gave me. 14 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Yeah, or somewhere 15 around there, that the repairs would be 16 approximately between approximately 25 and $30,000. 17 MR. SEATON: Yeah. Well, actually I'm a 18 little lost still because I gained that information 19 from you, and I guess from our conversation sort of 20 my take-away was that we didn't bill you. If you 21 wish for us to bill you for that, I'd be happy to 22 send you an invoice. 23 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: If we deserve a bill, 24 you please do that. If you performed a service for 25 us and you didn't get paid, I think you should; the 63 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 same way if the City Controller's Office says that 3 you have responsibility for what occurred on game 4 day and you're saying you don't. 5 If we owe you money, sir, send them the 6 bill. 7 MR. SEATON: Thank you. 8 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Two final 9 questions. The square footage on the half field at 10 Jack Russell Stadium in Florida is approximately 11 27,000 square feet. There the arrangement, the 12 approximate per-square-foot cost is $3.70. You 13 provided an explanation on why the -- "discrepancy" 14 may be an inappropriate word -- why the difference 15 between per square foot $13 in Philadelphia and $8 16 per square foot at Wissahickon High School. 17 Provide an explanation on why $13 square a 18 square foot in Philadelphia for NeXturf and $3.70 19 per square foot in Florida for the same product. 20 MR. SEATON: I'm not exactly, sure, Madam 21 Chair, how large the field is. 22 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: So is that a 23 factor in determining the bottom-line figure? 24 MR. SEATON: Yeah. It's, you know, the 25 delta, the field times, you know, multiplied by the 64 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 value. And you have to take into consideration 3 inside the contract values, both yours, Wissahickon, 4 and the Jack Russell Stadium that there's also other 5 kinds of ancillary work that goes on -- excavation 6 concrete, track work -- so you have to have a full 7 breakdown. I don't know how big it is. 8 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Are you 9 submitting a bid for consideration for the new 10 stadiums in the City of Philadelphia? 11 MR. SEATON: Yes, ma'am, I certainly hope 12 that we will because we also built the new NovaCare 13 Center for the practice field for the Eagles, the 14 natural grass, which has worked out tremendously 15 well for them. And I actually just came from New 16 York City where we're completing the Yankees' 17 baseball field today. 18 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Thank you 19 very much. I have no further questions. 20 Councilman? 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: No. 22 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Thank you 23 very much, gentleman. 24 (Councilman Nutter enters 25 Council chamber.) 65 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 MR. GRIFFITH: Subject to our five minutes 3 later. Thank you. 4 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Madam Chair. 5 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Oh, 6 Councilman Nutter has joined us. Please forgive me. 7 (Messrs. Seaton and Griffith 8 leave witness table.) 9 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Gentlemen. 10 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Please 11 forgive me, gentlemen. I failed to recognize my 12 colleague Councilman Michael Nutter, who has joined 13 us for these proceedings. 14 Welcome. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Thank you, thank you, 16 Madam Chair. 17 Good afternoon, gentlemen. I'm sorry I 18 missed some of your opening statements. Could you 19 just tell me who you are. 20 MR. GRIFFITH: James Griffith, attorney 21 for Southwest. 22 MR. SEATON: Reed James Seaton, President, 23 Southwest Recreational Industries, Inc. 24 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I'm sorry. I didn't 25 catch your name. 66 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 MR. SEATON: Reed Seaton. 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: How do you spell your 4 last name? 5 MR. SEATON: S-E-A-T-O-N. 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: S-E-A-T-O-N, Seaton? 7 MR. SEATON: That's correct. 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, and you're the 9 president of Southwest? 10 MR. SEATON: I'm sorry, can you repeat 11 that question? 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: You're the president 13 of Southwest? 14 MR. SEATON: That's correct. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, great. 16 When I came in, you were answering a 17 question, I think, from Councilman Rizzo with regard 18 to conversions of the field, and I heard you talking 19 about damage. What kind of damage was created at 20 Veterans Stadium or damage to the surface? 21 MR. GRIFFITH: At what point in time are 22 you talking about, sir? 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I don't know, about 10 24 minutes ago, you were in a -- 25 MR. GRIFFITH: I'm talking to you about 67 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 damage to the field. At what point in time are you 3 talking about with respect to that field? 4 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I'm not sure. I came 5 in while Mr. Seaton was talking, so it was about 10 6 minutes or so ago when you were responding to some 7 questions from Councilman Rizzo, and you were 8 talking about heavy equipment, maybe tractors, some 9 other stuff being on the fields, and that there was 10 damage. That's not so much that the field wore out 11 but that it had been damaged. Do you remember that 12 testimony? 13 MR. GRIFFITH: I believe he's since 14 explained to Councilman Rizzo that it was over -- 15 well, I'll let you... 16 MR. SEATON: Do you remember the statement 17 MR. SEATON: Yes. 18 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, tell me a little 19 bit more about that, I'm sorry. 20 MR. SEATON: Well, I don't really know 21 that I have anything additional to add to that, sir. 22 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Mr. Seaton, what I'm 23 trying to explain to you is, you were in the middle 24 of a conversation that I didn't have the benefit of 25 hearing the beginning of; all I heard you talking 68 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 about was that the field had been damaged. 3 I'm trying to understand the nature of the 4 damage, who created the damage and what the damage 5 was. What were you talking about? 6 MR. SEATON: Councilman, have you had the 7 opportunity to spend the evening at a conversion 8 process? 9 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I heard you ask my 10 colleague that question. I've done everything I can 11 in my public life not to spend the night at Veterans 12 Stadium, so the answer is no. 13 MR. SEATON: Okay. I'd love to answer 14 your question but I'm not real sure what exactly the 15 question is. 16 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Did you say the field 17 had been damaged equipment outside of the normal-use 18 process? 19 MR. SEATON: I believe that what I said 20 was is that based on the unique environment of Vets 21 Stadium because of the convertibility and because 22 the bleachers retract and move across the field and 23 there's a tremendous amount of moving pieces, the 24 dugout and the pitcher mound, that you have lots of 25 vehicular traffic -- trucks and forklifts and 69 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 buggies and etc. -- that drive on the turf. 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. 4 MR. SEATON: In most playing fields, you 5 will not see a pickup truck or bleachers or fork 6 trucks moving huge racks of very heavy iron and 7 steel driving on your playing field. 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, I understand 9 that. Now, you put the turf in -- this is the new 10 turf, right? You put the NeXturf in? 11 MR. SEATON: That's correct. 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. Did you know 13 that that's what we did when you made the 14 installation or when you made the pitch for the 15 business? 16 MR. GRIFFITH: Councilman, I believe you 17 were not here for the portion of my openings remarks 18 where I indicated that due to sensitivities, we were 19 not going to talk about the conversion process and 20 any issues related to that. 21 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I didn't so much ask 22 you about the conversion process; I asked you, when 23 you bid for the job, did you know what was involved 24 or what was going to happen to the turf in the 25 course of the period of time that it was in place 70 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 and that certain activities would take place? I'm 3 just asking you, were you aware much that 4 MR. GRIFFITH: I understood the question 5 and, again, in light of the sensitivities of this 6 issue, we're not going to get into that here today. 7 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Okay. Mr. Seaton, you 8 said that the field was damaged, in response to 9 Councilman Rizzo's question, that there had been 10 damage to the field by all of this equipment going 11 over it? 12 MR. GRIFFITH: I believe he just clarified 13 his remarks and what he said -- what he just said 14 two minutes ago is his testimony, sir. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Well, I think I'd like 16 to hear from Mr. Seaton; is that possible? 17 MR. SEATON: Councilman, I believe that's 18 the second or third time that I've tried to answer 19 the question for you. Maybe if you can rephrase the 20 question. 21 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: So your testimony is 22 as a part of our process, we damage the field; is 23 that what you're saying? 24 MR. SEATON: Which field are you referring 25 to, sir? 71 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: The current field. 3 MR. SEATON: I don't believe I was 4 testifying to the current field. 5 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: What field were you 6 talking about? 7 MR. SEATON: I believe the Councilmember 8 was referring to the previous field. 9 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Did you do the 10 previous field? 11 MR. SEATON: Yes, our company did. 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, well then, let's 13 talk about that field. Who damaged that field? 14 MR. SEATON: That's the testimony that 15 I've given already twice, sir. 16 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. 17 MR. SEATON: I mean, that's why I really 18 started out by saying, Have you ever spent the night 19 to watch the environment? And it's very hard for me 20 to explain to you, you know, without maybe, you 21 know, being there once and understanding the 22 conversion process. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, all right. Then 24 let me try to better understand your response to 25 Councilwoman Reynolds Brown's question with regard 72 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 to the differing price levels of the varying fields. 3 I think there was some discussion at the last 4 hearing, and apparently there was more at this 5 hearing about Wissahickon, I think some work you did 6 in Florida maybe for the Phillies, and then the 7 price here in Philadelphia. Is it 5, 8 and 13; are 8 those the numbers per square foot? 9 MR. SEATON: I believe those were Madam's 10 numbers, yes. 11 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, are they 12 correct? 13 MR. SEATON: I couldn't tell you 14 specifically sitting here today. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: You don't know what 16 you charged those various people per square foot, 17 including us, for your product? 18 MR. SEATON: I do not. 19 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Do you have 20 a member of your team here who can answer the 21 question accurately? 22 MR. SEATON: Actually I do not, ma'am. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Well, who would know 24 the answer to the question? You're the president of 25 the company -- I'm sorry, did I take that down 73 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 correctly? 3 MR. SEATON: That's correct. 4 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, you're the 5 president. 6 MR. GRIFFITH: That's the second time or 7 perhaps the third that you've asked that, 8 Councilman. 9 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Well, Mr. Griffin -- 10 MR. GRIFFITH: It's Griffith. 11 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Griffith. Is that 12 G-R-I-F-F-I-T-H? 13 MR. GRIFFITH: Yes. 14 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. Mr. Griffth, 15 you've probably been through this a couple times in 16 your legal experience. We ask a lot of questions 17 here, as we are public officials. What you get in 18 court is, you get to say "asked and answered." You 19 don't get that here. So as many times as I ask the 20 question, I will expect an answer. And when I get 21 an answer that makes some sense, then we'll move on, 22 okay? 23 MR. GRIFFITH: We're trying to be helpful 24 and cooperative, sir. 25 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. So if I ask the 74 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 president of a company how much his product costs, I 3 would reasonably expect an answer, 'cause he's the 4 president. And I think that's a reasonable 5 question. 6 MR. GRIFFITH: Fair enough. I believe -- 7 and perhaps you weren't here for this part of the 8 testimony when he explained the different factors 9 that go into the pricing of the product. 10 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I think it was size 11 and what else you have to do; were those some of 12 factors? Did I catch that part correct? 13 MR. SEATON: That's correct. 14 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. So did I also 15 understand you to say you didn't know how much 16 square footage there was at these varying fields? 17 MR. SEATON: I do not know exactly sitting 18 here. Wissahickon I don't believe was an issue at 19 the previous hearing. 20 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Was there more turf at 21 Jack Russell Stadium than at the Vet or less? 22 MR. SEATON: Significantly less. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Significantly less. 24 MR. SEATON: Maybe six, seven times less. 25 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. Is it a fair 75 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 assessment in business that the more you buy of 3 something, the cheaper the price is? 4 MR. GRIFFITH: You're asking him for an 5 opinion, and we're not here to offer opinions, 6 Councilman. We'll be glad to testify about the 7 facts but -- 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: He can give an 9 opinion, he can give his business expertise. 10 You're in business, right? Generally if 11 someone buys more of a product from you, you give 12 them a cheaper price; is that true? 13 MR. SEATON: Maybe, Councilmember, 14 maybe -- 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: That's kind of the 16 fundamentals of supply and demand, I think it's 17 Economics 101. 18 MR. SEATON: Maybe what we could do is 19 read the record back. I mean, I think I gave 15, 20 20 minutes of testimony on the price difference earlier 21 and, you know, if you want to go through that again, 22 I'm here for you. That's the -- 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I don't want to burden 24 the record if you gave the answer 15, 20 minutes 25 ago, you had a good 15, 20 minutes of testimony. I 76 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 guess, again, being the reasonable person that I am 3 is that you might remember. I mean, the answers 4 don't change, do they? 5 MR. SEATON: Ask your question, sir. I'll 6 try to answer it for you. 7 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, you're saying 8 that there was six, maybe seven times less turf 9 at -- what is it, Jack Russell Stadium, is that what 10 it's called? 11 MR. SEATON: I believe that's correct. 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, six, seven times 13 less there than at the Vet. 14 MR. SEATON: And maybe even more. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: All right, maybe more. 16 Was the price per square foot less at Russell or 17 more than Vets Stadium 18 MR. SEATON: It was less. 19 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: It was less. How much 20 less? 21 MR. SEATON: Specifically I'm not sure 22 that I could tell you that today. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, let me ask this 24 question. 25 MR. SEATON: I thought you wanted my 77 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 answer. 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I do, but I have 4 another question. When did you find out about this 5 hearing? 6 MR. SEATON: Which hearing? 7 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: This hearing, the one 8 we're in right now. 9 MR. SEATON: Oh, I believe last week 10 sometime. 11 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Last week? 12 MR. SEATON: I believe that's correct, 13 yes. 14 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: and what was your 15 anticipation upon coming to the hearing? because I'm 16 sure you had a good conversation with Mr. Griffith 17 about today's hearing, right? 18 MR. SEATON: Not necessarily. I came here 19 voluntarily to represent our product and our company 20 and what I think is an outstanding installation that 21 has played very well. Best, you know, fielding 22 season for the Phillies, they came in third; the 23 Eagles are number one in the division; we haven't 24 had any major injuries; the field's working great; 25 attendance is up; commissions are up. 78 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 I really came to try to answer questions. 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I actually live here, 4 I know most of those things, okay? 5 So in anticipation of today's hearing, did 6 you think we might ask you some questions about the 7 company, about prices, about things that you've done 8 in other places; was that your anticipation or were 9 you -- 10 MR. GRIFFITH: We had no idea what you 11 were thinking, Councilman. 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, well, you 13 wouldn't know what I was thinking, but there was a 14 resolution that was introduced and someone must have 15 invited you and I'm sure, knowing Councilwoman 16 Reynolds Brown, that she would have -- 17 MR. GRIFFITH: And I guess if we read the 18 resolution, we'd know that it didn't even mention 19 prices. 20 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I'm sorry? 21 MR. GRIFFITH: If you read the resolution, 22 it certainly didn't mention prices. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, well -- 24 MR. SEATON: Actually, the resolution 25 mentioned nothing specific for me, sir. You didn't 79 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 ask me -- 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I think it talked 4 about this situation though. I think it talked 5 about this situation. Did you have a representative 6 at the last hearing? 7 MR. SEATON: I was here. 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: You were here? 9 MR. SEATON: Yes. 10 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I think we had some 11 discussion about price. I think, as a matter of 12 fact, I asked -- there was a gentleman sitting there 13 at the table, I think he works for the Phillies, and 14 I think I specifically asked him questions about the 15 stadium in Florida versus Veterans Stadium. 16 Do you know who that gentleman was? Who 17 was it? 18 MR. SEATON: I believe his last name is 19 Amaro. 20 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: It could have been, 21 yeah. I think he works for the Phillies, right? 22 MR. SEATON: He's the manager or 23 something. That was the first time I met him, at 24 the last hearing. 25 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: All right, okay. So 80 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 we did actually talk about price and size and amount 3 at the last hearing, and you said you were here, 4 right? 5 MR. SEATON: Maybe if you could drill down 6 to the question, I'd be very happy to try to answer 7 it for you. 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. Well, I'd like 9 to talk about why there was such a seemingly -- for 10 the layperson, a seemingly drastic price difference 11 between the Jack Russell Stadium and the Phillies 12 stadium, or the Phillies and Eagles stadium or the 13 Veterans Stadium is actually our stadium. 14 MR. GRIFFITH: Mr. Seaton has testified to 15 the best of his ability and given lengthy testimony 16 concerning the pricing of his product. 17 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, that's your 18 answer and you're going to stick to that? 19 MR. SEATON: I believe it's in the 20 transcript. 21 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay, all right. 22 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: For the 23 benefit of my colleague, please state again those 24 factors that arrive you to the decision on why 25 square footage in one location should be one price 81 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 and square footage in another location should be 3 another. Cite those factors again for us for the 4 record. 5 MR. GRIFFITH: Councilwoman, Mr. Seaton 6 has already given extensive testimony about this. I 7 notice we've already gone over our allotted time of 8 20 minutes. I'm going to allow him to answer the 9 question again subject to the caution that, you 10 know, it's not a memory test, and he may not be able 11 to recite it exactly as before. 12 COUNCILWOMAN REYNOLDS BROWN: Well taken. 13 MR. SEATON: Size, wages, weather, 14 substrate, taxes, hotel, air fare, freight, 15 surcharge on freight, union dues and fees, 16 complexity of the installation, auxillary work, 17 additional end zones, additional base inserts, 18 warning tracks, goal post foundations, testing the 19 system, being onsite, removing snow all winter, 20 doing prototyping, doing mock fields, doing 21 demonstrations. 22 You know, basically, the Vet facility 23 probably encompassed the most complexed set of 24 conditions to meet the opening baseball day of the 25 contracts in the past. 82 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 I mean, I would be quite happy, I think, 3 to answer the question. I mean, it is, you know -- 4 why don't you ask me how much money we made on the 5 project. That's what you'd like to know, isn't it? 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Well, I hadn't really 7 gotten around to that but, you know, quite frankly, 8 if you're offering it up, I'm sure you're going to 9 tell me some sad tale about how your kids don't have 10 shoes or nobody was able to have dinner the week 11 after you did the Vets Stadium installation or 12 something like that. So, I mean, I certainly 13 wouldn't in a public forum want to embarrass you. 14 But why don't I just kind of stick to the 15 questions that I'd like to ask you, and I appreciate 16 your offer of a question, but the one thing I have 17 been able to figure out in my time here is how to 18 ask the questions I want to ask, how to ask the 19 questions I want to ask. I got that part down. 20 Let me ask you this question: What's the 21 experience with this particular product in the 22 Northeast with our little unique four seasons of 23 weather, the NeXturf product? 24 MR. SEATON: I'm sorry, Councilman, 25 what -- 83 1 12/18/01 PARKS & REC. COMMITTEE - RES. 010533 2 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: What's experience of 3 the product in the Northeast region of the United 4 States of America -- cold weather, rain, snow and 5 the like? What's the history of the product in that 6 environment? 7 MR. SEATON: I think we all know, 8 Councilmember, that it's a new product. 9 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: How new? 10 MR. SEATON: It's been in the market for 11 approximately about two years, two and a half years. 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. Has it snowed 13 in any of the environment in that two-year period 14 where it's currently ins