00001 1 2 COUNCIL OF THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA 3 CONTINUED PUBLIC HEARING 4 COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE 5 - - - 6 Room 696, City Hall Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 7 Wednesday, April 2, 2003 9:55 a.m. 8 - - - 9 Bill Numbers 030002, 030003, 10 030004, 030005, 030006, 030008, 11 030009 030010, 030012, and 030013; 12 -and- Resolution Number 030030 13 - - - 14 15 PRESENT: 16 COUNCIL PRESIDENT ANNA C. VERNA COUNCILWOMAN JANNIE BLACKWELL 17 COUNCILWOMAN BLONDELL REYNOLDS BROWN COUNCILMAN DAVID COHEN 18 COUNCILMAN JAMES KENNEY COUNCILMAN RICHARD T. MARIANO 19 COUNCILMAN MICHAEL A. NUTTER COUNCILMAN BRIAN J. O'NEILL 20 COUNCILMAN ANGEL L. ORTIZ COUNCILWOMAN DONNA REED-MILLER 21 COUNCILMAN FRANK RIZZO COUNCILWOMAN MARIAN B. TASCO 22 - - - 23 V A R A L L O Incorporated Litigation Support Services 24 1835 Market Street, Suite 600 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103 25 215.561.2220 215.567.2670 00002 1 2 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: This is a 3 continued hearing of the Committee of the Whole, 4 regarding Bill Numbers 030002, 030003, 030004, 5 030005, 030006, 030008, 030009 030010, 030012, and 6 030013, and Resolution Number 030030. 7 Our first department today is the 8 Department of Records. I would ask the 9 Commissioner to please approach the witness table. 10 Good morning. Please identify 11 yourself for the record and proceed with your 12 testimony. 13 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Good morning. 14 My name is Joan Decker, Commissioner of Department 15 of Records. I will not read the testimony. I 16 think you have a written copy. I'd just like to 17 make a couple of comments. 18 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: And we 19 will give the stenographer a copy. 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Okay. I have 21 with me today Jeanne Reedy, Administrative 22 Services Director; Diana Perry from our mail 23 return group; and Hector Valentin, Senior 24 Photographer. I'd like to acknowledge their 25 presence. 00003 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 First I would like to thank City 3 Council members for the support of the Records 4 Department. During the past year you enabled us 5 to pass a C increase which will enable us to 6 continue to provide service improvements to our 7 customers, and also to implement a number of 8 productivity initiatives within our department. 9 One of the initiatives that we will 10 be implementing will be a document recording 11 notice program which is really designed to notify 12 the home property owners any time a deed or a 13 mortgage is filed in our department, to give them 14 advance notice in the event that there is some 15 fraudulent activity that's occurring against their 16 property, and give them enough notice so that they 17 can prevent any subsequent fraudulent activity 18 from occurring. 19 The other initiatives that we have 20 planned include converting a lot of our land 21 records that are used by many of the citizens into 22 electronic format to make them more convenient and 23 accessible to our customers. 24 We also are looking into pursuing 25 electronic recording where documents will be 00004 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 submitted in electronic format, reducing the 3 amount of paper that is handled both by the 4 submitters as well as our department, and 5 automating a lot of the operations within the 6 document recording area. 7 And with that I would like to answer 8 any questions that you may have. 9 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Thank you. 10 How many of your employees are under the DROP 11 program, and when will they be going out? 12 COMMISSIONER DECKER: There are 13 approximately ten employees in DROP. 14 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: I'm sorry. 15 I didn't hear you. 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sure. 17 Approximately ten employee enrolled in DROP, and 18 three of them will be going out in FY '04. There 19 are about -- 20 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: So you 21 would have eight vacancies? 22 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 23 correct. Over a period of years, that is. Most 24 recent enrollees occurred this past January, so we 25 still have about two or three individuals who 00005 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 recently signed up, and it's possible that they 3 will stay -- 4 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: But in 5 your testimony you say the number of staff 6 position changes from 90 positions to 85 full-time 7 staff positions. 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. That's 9 correct. That is through DROP, and also through 10 just attrition and retirements. And we are able 11 to do this through some of the productivity 12 improvements that we've introduced in the 13 department. 14 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Okay. The 15 Chair recognizees Councilman Cohen. 16 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Thank you. 17 Commissioner Decker, part of your duties involves 18 dealing with banks and title companies; is that 19 right? 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, 21 Councilman, that's correct. 22 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And they obtain 23 records of deed transactions of movement of 24 property from one owner to another? 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 00006 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 correct. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And what 4 arrangements are made for compensation? 5 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The -- 6 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Do they pay for 7 the service or is that a service the City makes 8 available because there are benefits to the City? 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The financial 10 institutions, there are a number of mediums from 11 which the data will be made available. And anyone 12 who wants a computer extract of the information 13 does pay a fee for purchasing copies of that. 14 There are a number of companies who 15 purchase complete copies of the microfilm that's 16 generated from the documents that you're 17 referencing, the deeds and mortgages and other 18 land record transactions. 19 So they can purchase microfilm. 20 They can purchase electronic extracts of the 21 information that's available. 22 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Now, is the same 23 information available to the public generally on 24 the same terms and conditions that's available to 25 banks? 00007 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The microfilm 3 and purchase of microfilm and purchase of the 4 electronic information is available to anyone who 5 requests it, providing that they pay the fee for 6 the cost of making the copy. 7 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Now, what is the 8 fee? 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The fee is -- 10 The microfilm is purchased through a vendor, so 11 the vendor really is... I don't have the exact 12 fee. It's actually -- The copies of microfilm are 13 produced by a company. 14 We make one copy available to that 15 company. And any companies that are any of our 16 customers, the financial institutions which you're 17 referencing that are interested, contract directly 18 that company to produce a copy of the microfilm, 19 and the company sets the fee for the copy of the 20 microfilm produced. 21 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Do you mean the 22 City doesn't furnish anything to the banks, that 23 the banks have to deal with an outside company to 24 get City records? 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: If they want a 00008 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 microfilm copy of the actual record. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, I don't 4 know whether they need a microfilm copy. Whatever 5 copy -- Whatever material they need. 6 Let's not get technical so that 7 later if a question comes up you say: Well, my 8 answer was only with respect to microfilm. I 9 didn't know you were referring to that -- to 10 something else. 11 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sure. 12 COUNCILMAN COHEN: What I'm 13 concerned about is, we've been getting complaints 14 that the public does not have available to it the 15 same information that banks and title companies 16 routinely get. And for years commissioners of 17 record have said: This is about to change; we're 18 going to make everything available so that the 19 public can get information about real estate 20 transactions. 21 Maybe we could stop some of these 22 improprieties that have taken place over the 23 years. 24 Whatever the reason is, it's public 25 information. And we understand from complaints 00009 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 received -- we may be wrong; we're not making a 3 judgment about it -- but the complaint is made 4 that the banks and title companies receive 5 favorable treatment that's not available to the 6 public, and that these records are not easily 7 available to the public. 8 And it would seem to me that if that 9 allegation is true, then it's a serious matter. 10 If on the other hand, it's not true and records 11 are made easily available, then it may be a 12 problem of not getting out the right information 13 to people. 14 So, could you comment on that? 15 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 16 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Can you tell us 17 whether the public has these records as available 18 on the same basis as those companies that need 19 these services for their professional purposes? 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. All of 21 the information that the Records Department has 22 that is public record is available to everyone and 23 anyone, whether they are company or an individual 24 citizen. 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Right. So that 00010 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 any complaints we get, for example, that somebody 3 who wants to make available on a web site the 4 information. You're saying that that person, if 5 he has complained about not having the same 6 advantage as banks and real estate is wrong? 7 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The 8 information is available on site in City Hall to 9 anyone and everyone. And I'm sorry to be 10 technical, but there are different ways of 11 producing the information and making it available. 12 And I'll step through three ways, if you would 13 bear with me. 14 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I'm sorry. I'm 15 having great trouble hearing you. If you would 16 speak directly in the microphone your voice will 17 come back. 18 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Is this 19 better? 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, say a few 21 more words. 22 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Okay. The 23 information -- 24 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes; better. 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Thank you. 00011 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 All of the information that the Records Department 3 has is public information -- if it is public 4 information, it's made available to everyone, 5 whether it's -- 6 COUNCILMAN COHEN: It's made 7 available... Then I missed the next word. 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: And there are 9 different ways of making it available. And 10 there -- Let me step you through three ways. 11 Companies and individuals can 12 purchase copies of recorded records for the land 13 records, which I think is what you're referring 14 to, that are on microfilm. That's available to 15 everyone. There is also -- 16 COUNCILMAN COHEN: At no charge? 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No. That's 18 paid through a company. A company -- 19 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Why does the 20 company have rights? 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Because we do 22 not have the resources to produce that volume 23 in-house, and the company was awarded the contract 24 based on an open competitive bid. 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: What sort of -- 00012 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Can you outline the nature of the contract? Is it 3 $50, or $100, or $1,000, or $10,000? 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: It's based on 5 the cost of a reel of tape, and it may be 6 somewhere in the ballpark of $10 or $11 per reel. 7 And I can get back to you with the exact figure. 8 COUNCILMAN COHEN: $10 per $11 per 9 what? 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Per reel, per 11 reel of microfilm. 12 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And how many 13 properties -- information about how many 14 properties would be contained on a reel? 15 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I would say a 16 week's worth of data may include anywhere from 17 three to five reels, depending upon the volume of 18 documents that we've recorded in that week. 19 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And about how 20 many properties would it cover? 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We -- About -- 22 I think deeds is -- the reel contains all land 23 records. So, that would include deeds and 24 mortgages, any kind of land record that was filed 25 for a particular property. We record in the 00013 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 vicinity of 200,000 documents on an annual basis. 3 We can get the math. 200,000 divided by 52 weeks. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Can we get the 5 information for the purpose of this hearing? It 6 doesn't help to us have you send a letter telling 7 us what the information is. 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sure. 9 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Because then we 10 can't ask you any questions and get clarification 11 about things. 12 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We process 13 200,000 -- approximately 200,000 documents on an 14 annual basis, divided by 52 weeks, is about 4,000 15 transactions a week. 16 So someone who is purchasing a 17 week's worth of data, which could be anywhere from 18 three to five reels, at $10 a reel, would be $30 19 to $50, I would imagine. And -- 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, has the 21 City ever decided that it ought to make that 22 information public directly? 23 COMMISSIONER DECKER: It is 24 available in our public service rooms in City Hall 25 every day, Monday through Friday. 00014 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN COHEN: How is it 3 available? 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We -- 5 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Somebody can come 6 in and look at the records? 7 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. Yes, 8 sir. We have a number of staff who assist 9 customers, and we also have a number of public 10 service terminals. 11 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Now, do banks use 12 that technique of getting their information? 13 COMMISSIONER DECKER: They use a 14 combination of techniques. Some use -- 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: They use a what? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Combination of 17 methods of acquiring the data. They send 18 searchers into our department on site. They 19 additionally purchase copies of microfilm of the 20 recorded transactions. 21 They also purchase electronic 22 extracts of the electronic index, the index of 23 information that gives you index information about 24 the actual copy of the document. 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Companies use 00015 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 that for purposes of their business; and they make 3 money on it, right? 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 5 correct. 6 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Now, suppose -- 7 does the City of Philadelphia make that material 8 available so that someone sitting at home with a 9 computer can access that material? 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: If they want 11 to purchase the electronic index, yes. 12 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, would that 13 be -- Would that make sense? Wouldn't that be 14 very costly if they wanted to keep track of every 15 transaction that occurred? How costly would that 16 be? 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: They would 18 have to do some programming to make that usable 19 for them, that's correct. 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, then it 21 would be quite expensive, wouldn't it? 22 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: For some 24 individual who, say, was concerned about stories 25 of favoritism that might exist with respect to any 00016 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 number of things, with respect, say, to 3 assessments by the Board of Revision of Taxes. 4 Somebody might want to check out is it true. You 5 know, we have political organizations which in 6 turn are run by committee people. 7 And committee members often will 8 report to the ward leader that in doing their work 9 contacting neighbors, handling problems for them, 10 one charge is frequently made that same neighbor 11 down the street is getting preferential treatment. 12 And that may or may not be true. 13 Nobody knows. It would be good if there were some 14 way of accessing that material and correcting 15 misinformation or correcting the situation if it 16 needs correction. 17 How can that be done if the City 18 doesn't make that material available to people 19 directly through their computers? 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Councilman, we 21 do not have assessment data. That data belongs to 22 the Board of Revision of Taxes. 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Say that again. 24 I didn't get that. 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The Records 00017 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Department does not have tax assessment 3 information. That information is really from the 4 Board of Revision of Taxes. It's not the Records 5 Department. 6 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, suppose 7 somebody wanted to check. They were told their 8 house was bought by a slum lord who's well known 9 in the City and who does not take care of his 10 property. 11 And they want to find out did that 12 empty house down the block that was boarded up 13 that recently sold, has it been sold to a slum 14 lord. How would that be found out easily by the 15 public? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: They could 17 come into the Records Department and look up the 18 owner of the property. If they know the property 19 address, they could come into the Records 20 Department, use the terminals there, or ask our 21 staff, public service staff, to assist them to 22 look up the owner of the property. 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And there would 24 be no fee charged? 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Not to 00018 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 retrieve and view the information, that's correct, 3 there is no fee. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: All right. Then 5 are you saying broadly -- Tell me if I'm right or 6 wrong with my conclusion or vary it, if you feel 7 it needs variation. You're saying that material 8 is made as easily available to the public as it is 9 to anyone else. 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The 11 information exists in the system, and that system 12 is available in the Records Department. We are 13 open Monday through Friday. Viewing the 14 information is available at no cost to the public. 15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Councilman 16 Rizzo has a point of information, Councilman 17 Cohen. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Councilman Cohen? 19 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes. 20 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Will you 21 recognize me for a Point of information? 22 COUNCILMAN COHEN: If it's truly a 23 Point of Information, yes. 24 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: It truly is. 25 It's enlightening. 00019 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Go ahead. I 3 yield. 4 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I just want to 5 follow up on... 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Councilman, did 7 you ask if it was a Point of Information, or a 8 Point of Inquiry or a Point of Order? 9 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, I'm not 10 sure which it is but it's -- 11 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: All of three. 12 COUNCILMAN COHEN: -- it's a point. 13 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Defer to the 14 Councilman's opportunity to speak. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: It's all three. 16 Why would this not be -- Why wouldn't this 17 information be available on the internet? 18 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The 19 information is not available on the internet -- 20 to -- We have... The system that was developed 21 for this information requires a number of licenses 22 to deploy it widely. 23 And it also requires a certain 24 network capacity to open up to a broad audience. 25 And we are not in a position at this point in time 00020 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to deploy it on a wide -- the internet application 3 on a wider basis. 4 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Because of all 5 the departments that have information on using 6 technology, you would think the Records Department 7 would be the most automated of all, because people 8 like Councilman Cohen would like to get 9 information. 10 Tell me: Is there an opportunity to 11 get this any other way from... through the 12 internet, through another department, through L&I? 13 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Well -- 14 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Is there another 15 way in? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The 17 information that we have, the application that is 18 used on the internet is also available in our 19 public service rooms in City Hall. 20 So it's a very user friendly 21 automated system that is open to the public. 22 Anyone can come in to view the information 23 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Commissioner, 24 that was fine 20 years ago. People don't come in 25 to the Public Information Office to look up an 00021 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 address like Councilman Cohen just addressed. 3 Are you telling me that this is 4 something we can do? And if we can't -- If you 5 can, then tell us what you need to get it 6 accomplished, because we need to really get up to 7 speed on making technology and information 8 available to people. So explain to me what you 9 need to do. And I'm finished, Councilman Cohen. 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Okay. 11 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: What you need to 12 accomplish that. 13 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The deployment 14 on a wider basis would require a larger network 15 capacity to come in to access the information, and 16 also the procurement of additional licenses to 17 make that available, based on a larger number of 18 users who would access that information. 19 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: Madam Chair, if I 20 may follow up. 21 COUNCILMAN COHEN: As a former 22 Commissioner of Records, I yield to Councilman 23 Ortiz. 24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: The Chair 25 recognizes Councilman Ortiz. 00022 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: Thank you, Madam 3 Chair. 4 What is PHILADOCS? 5 COMMISSIONER DECKER: PHILADOCS is 6 the automated recording system. So, it's an 7 automated system that enables the Records 8 Department to process documents that need to be 9 recorded as part of the Recorder of Deeds Office. 10 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: If I'm an 11 individual that runs a real estate firm and I need 12 to check on certain things, is that available to 13 be at my office? 14 COMMISSIONER DECKER: There is 15 limited access to approximately 50 companies that 16 is available. That access is available to high 17 usage users. 18 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: So you make this 19 off center, out of office service that you can do 20 within your -- remotely from your own office, 21 available to 50 companies. 22 Could you tell me, do you have a 23 list of the 50 companies? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I could get 25 that to you, Councilman. 00023 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: And do you charge 3 these 50 companies anything for it? 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: A pilot -- 5 When we implemented an automated system, the year 6 after we implemented the automated system, we -- 7 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Could you speak 8 into the microphone, please. 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sorry. 10 COUNCILMAN COHEN: When you speak 11 into the microphone, I hear you without any 12 problem; but as soon as you vary away from it, 13 your voice gets lost. 14 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sure. Is this 15 better? 16 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes, much better. 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Okay. When we 18 implemented the automated recording system, a year 19 after the implementation, we produced a pilot that 20 was -- we had a limited number of licenses that 21 were available to make this information available, 22 so we wanted to test that pilot. 23 To expand -- And let me also -- 24 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: My question was: 25 You have 50 companies that you make this available 00024 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to. One, I'd like to see the list of those 3 companies. 4 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: 5 Commissioner, I think the gentleman that you're 6 looking for is right behind you. 7 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I'm sorry. 8 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: One, I'd like to 9 see the list of those companies, who they are; and 10 two, do you charge those 50 companies anything for 11 the service? 12 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, we do not. 13 This was envisioned to be a pilot, Councilman. 14 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: But they get it 15 for free? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Mm-hmm. 17 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: 50 big companies? 18 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I don't know 19 that they're all big companies. But can I add a 20 little bit of context to this, please? 21 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: You can add 22 context to it, but just get a service for free 23 that is not available to citizens of Philadelphia 24 when it should be. And other citizens that want 25 to access that service have to come in to City 00025 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Hall and then pay a very large fee for that. 3 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No. No, 4 Councilman. The companies generally in order -- 5 The companies that are engaged in title insurance 6 business or financial institutions that are 7 engaged in recording mortgages and other kinds of 8 mortgage-related instruments, generally establish 9 title plants. 10 And they generally establish folders 11 of records with transactions against particular 12 properties. 13 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: I know what title 14 companies do. I'm an attorney. 15 This is a service that should be 16 provided to people, citizens, that want 17 information about what real transactions are 18 happening. 19 If a citizen is only concerned as to 20 what is going on in his or her neighborhood, for 21 example: A few houses have been bought, boarded 22 up; nobody knows who did it; and they left there; 23 all of a sudden another house happens. And a 24 citizen gets concerned. And he may not want or 25 she may not want to come down or cannot come down 00026 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to City Hall. 3 He should be able to get into a 4 computer and access that information. If it is 5 available to these companies, it should be 6 available to that citizen. 7 COMMISSIONER DECKER: And it is 8 available. If an individual is not able to come 9 into the department, we respond to mail requests, 10 we respond to telephone requests. 11 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: But you see what 12 I'm talking about. 13 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Do these 14 companies have to do the same thing? They mail in 15 a request for each item of information they want? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, we do. 17 Yes, we do. 18 COUNCILMAN COHEN: No, I didn't ask 19 whether you do. I said, is it a requirement of 20 your office that each of these 50 companies mail 21 in separately each request? 22 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: No. They can 23 access immediately, right? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: They generally 25 establish a title plan. And the online system is 00027 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 of use to them only to see the last -- latest 3 transaction of record. All of the companies that 4 generally do business with us -- Having the 5 internet in itself is -- 6 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I'm not getting 7 your voice at all. Could you speak directly into 8 the microphone. When you do, there's no problem 9 at all hearing you. 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The companies 11 that need this information also purchase the 12 information. They establish a file of data. They 13 purchase microfilm, and they also purchase 14 electronic extracts. 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Does the City 16 make a profit on what's purchased from them? 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, sir. We 18 do not make a profit. 19 COUNCILMAN COHEN: All right. So 20 that the City gains nothing except they get paid 21 the costs? Why does the City charge a fee, to 22 cover what? 23 COMMISSIONER DECKER: To cover the 24 cost of producing a copy. 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: The City's costs. 00028 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, 3 Councilman. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: It's my 5 understanding of the law that the City is limited 6 in its charges to recouping the cost. 7 Now, what would be the cost of 8 preparing it so that people in the public who may 9 not want it to be known that they're checking on 10 something. 11 If there's public information, it 12 means people have a right to check on it without 13 making an announcement to the world that they are 14 checking on the certain property. 15 They ought to be able to check it, 16 decide whether or not they want to release 17 information that makes it clear to everybody else 18 that this is a problem that needs attention. 19 They may just want to look at it; 20 say, oh, it's okay, and forgot about it. Why 21 should they have to write so that you can notify 22 the homeowner, or the owner of the property, or 23 the title company that somebody's checking on 24 something? 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: They don't 00029 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 need to -- They can come into the Records 3 Department Monday through Friday -- 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: But citizens 5 don't come in. Why do you erect such a barrier? 6 Why don't you tell the realties, 50 companies, 7 that you're eliminating them from remote access, 8 and any information they want they're going to 9 have to get by coming in? 10 You don't do that because it's not 11 convenient to the companies. And we say that's 12 okay. 13 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The company -- 14 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Point of 15 Inquiry. 16 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Excuse me. 17 The Chair recognizes Councilman Nutter for a Point 18 of Inquiry. 19 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Thank you. 20 Councilman Cohen, are you all right with that? 21 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes. Sure. Go 22 ahead. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Commissioner 24 Decker, you have and continue to be -- You have 25 been and continue to be one of the stars in this 00030 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Administration. 3 You and your staff, I believe, have 4 moved the Records Department leaps and bounds over 5 the years, from a technology standpoint, from an 6 efficiency standpoint, from a management 7 standpoint. 8 And I think many of us, including 9 those who are asking questions, have praised your 10 work and your service. 11 As we continue to move into this age 12 of increasing technology and increasing access, I 13 wondered, based on the questions that are being 14 asked, whether or not you would be agreeable to -- 15 And I know we have our Budget Director here who is 16 possibly the highest ranking member of the 17 Administration -- Well, I don't want to get into 18 that. I think, actually, commissioners outrank 19 budget directors, but they never get what they 20 want. 21 Is it possible for us with a number 22 of Council Members who are asking questions, and 23 the President or representative from the 24 President, to sit down and talk about all of these 25 issues and seek to come to a reasonable resolution 00031 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to the increasing need for access to public 3 information by regular citizens, as well as 4 business people, and talk through who's paying for 5 what or who's getting access for what? And to 6 some extent get you out of a complete negotiation 7 right here at the table, where you might not have 8 all of the information that you need to do what 9 you need to do under the circumstances? 10 Would you be amenable -- 11 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. Thank 12 you very much. 13 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: -- to that kind 14 of process and procedure, working in conjunction 15 with members of Council and the Administration? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. We'd be 17 very happy to do that. 18 COUNCILMAN COHEN: But Councilman, I 19 won't at this point be amenable to that. 20 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Councilman 21 Cohen, I assume you're going to continue to ask 22 all your questions 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: No. No, not 24 necessarily. You have a very interesting idea. 25 But before I feel that question would be 00032 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 appropriate, we have here today a person who makes 3 it his public business, his participation in the 4 City affairs, things we'd like to see many other 5 citizens do. 6 He makes available, at the expense 7 to himself, certain public information which I 8 think the City itself ought to make available. 9 But since the City doesn't, I would 10 like to know whether or not before -- May we hear 11 from him to see whether or not what his view would 12 be on this, and whether we're dealing with the 13 issues. He makes available things publicly that 14 often I don't like, and I fight with him. 15 You know, all of us in public life 16 kind of feel we wanted a lot of publicity in 17 everybody else's business. But when it comes to 18 things we're involved in, we like to assert 19 privacy. 20 So I have any own disputes with the 21 gentleman involved. But basically he's doing a 22 very useful public service. He makes available, 23 whether we in public life like it or not, things 24 that he feels are important to the public. And 25 when they are public issues, I think he's dead 00033 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 right. 3 So I would like to suggest, Madam 4 President, if we could hear from Ed Goppelt, I 5 think his name is, who makes information available 6 to citizens of Philadelphia on a web site, public 7 information that's clearly public but that the 8 City does not make available easily. 9 I'd like to ask whether he thinks 10 such an arrangement would be useful. If so, I 11 would be happy to accept Councilman Nutter's 12 suggestion. But I feel he's the expert in this 13 area, and I would like him to be participating in 14 any negotiations. 15 Is it all right, Madam President? 16 Could he be called while commissioner Decker is -- 17 so we know we've joined the issue. 18 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: That would 19 be fine. 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Mr. Goppelt, 21 would you come forward. Commissioner, stay at 22 your desk, at your seat. Can we have the 23 Sergeant-at-Arms provide a chair? 24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: There is a 25 chair. 00034 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN COHEN: There is a chair. 3 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Yes. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, identify 5 yourself for the record, Mr. Goppelt. Spell your 6 last name, so that they'll have it, and tell us 7 your reaction. 8 MR. GOPPELT: Okay. Good morning, 9 City Council. Councilman Cohen, can you hear me? 10 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes. Fine. 11 MR. GOPPELT: Okay. I'm Ed Goppelt. 12 My last name is spelled G as in George, o double p 13 as in Peter e-l-t as in Thomas. And I run the 14 good government web site, hallwatch.org. 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Has the 16 discussion that's taken place reflect 17 consideration of your concerns? Have we been 18 dealing with the issue as you see it or do you 19 want to rephrase what you think is not being made 20 available to the public? 21 MR. GOPPELT: Well, clearly, 22 PHILADOCS is not being made available to the 23 public. 24 COUNCILMAN COHEN: What was that 25 again? 00035 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 MR. GOPPELT: PHILADOCS. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Will you explain 4 what that is. 5 MR. GOPPELT: It's information about 6 deeds, mortgages, real estate transactions that is 7 available to the title companies, to a select 8 group of title companies, law firms, and banks. 9 My concern about this arrangement is 10 that it's not fair, services being provided to 11 private companies that is not being made available 12 to the public. 13 I think one relevant fact which 14 hasn't been brought out at this point is, at least 15 according to the Records Department's previous 16 budget messages, they implemented this so-called 17 pilot just about three years ago. 18 Now, I don't know about the Records 19 Department, but it usually takes me about two days 20 to test a web page to see whether it works or not, 21 and they've had three years. 22 So I think the question has to be 23 asked: At what point is enough enough? And are 24 you either going to go with this thing full bore 25 and make it available to the public, or stop 00036 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 giving these companies a special break. It's not 3 fair. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Would you have a 5 comment to that? I'll adopt that as my question, 6 Mr. Goppelt. With your permission, I'd like to 7 appropriate your question and make it mine, and 8 ask the Commissioner for her response. 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sure. And 10 Councilman, on advice of counsel, since 11 Mr. Goppelt has filed a lawsuit against the City 12 and is suing the City, I really would prefer not 13 to answer this in a public session, but I'd be 14 more than happy to answer all of your questions in 15 a meeting with City Council. 16 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, 17 unfortunately, City Council has a legislative 18 chore to do; and the fact that somebody sues or 19 doesn't sue is of no relevance to us. 20 We don't think that insulates the 21 material from public intrusion by City Council. 22 We don't think you can employ a lawsuit against 23 your department as an excuse to deny Council the 24 information it must have. 25 So we don't recognize that or else 00037 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 every department in the government would easily 3 arrange to have lawsuits filed against it, because 4 nobody likes to testify before City Council. 5 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: The question is 6 simple. The pilot has been in effect for three 7 years. Why doesn't it become a program? I think 8 the issue is simple. The pilot has been in effect 9 for three years. Why this program has not been 10 expanded so that the public can have access to it? 11 COMMISSIONER DECKER: And I 12 mentioned that we do not have -- Again, I'm going 13 against the advice of counsel. This is a suit 14 that's filed -- 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Who is counsel? 16 And who does he represent? 17 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: The issue is, 18 what information is going to be made available to 19 the public that is made available to a private 20 company under the guise of a pilot program that is 21 now three years old. 22 Now, to me that is not a pilot 23 program any longer. That is a program. That is a 24 program that is ongoing. And a pilot program does 25 not take that long to be done. 00038 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 And how long is it going to be made 3 available for free to the companies, and the 4 citizens are made to come down to City Hall to go 5 through that expense, and then to pay something 6 else other, and go through all that inconvenience 7 to get that same service. 8 I don't think it's fair. The answer 9 is yes or no. When is it going to be done? Is it 10 going to be done within the next month, or the 11 next week, the next six months, the next year? 12 COMMISSIONER DECKER: As I 13 previously -- 14 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Who is the 15 attorney advising you? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Joe Bradica 17 from the City's Law Department. 18 COUNCILMAN COHEN: What's the name? 19 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Joseph 20 Bradica. 21 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Of the Law 22 Department. 23 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, the 24 City's Law Department. 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Okay. 00039 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COMMISSIONER DECKER: As I mentioned 3 previously, the wider deployment is based on 4 license issues and some network capacity. 5 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Where's 6 Councilman Ortiz. He raised that question. 7 Councilman Ortiz. 8 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Councilman 9 Ortiz. 10 COUNCILMAN COHEN: We received an 11 answer. Do you want to comment on the answer? 12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Councilman 13 Ortiz. 14 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: Yes, ma'am. 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: You received an 16 answer to your question. Is it a satisfactory 17 answer or not? 18 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: I didn't hear it. 19 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Could you repeat 20 your answer? 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Would you like 22 me to repeat it? 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes. 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The wider 25 deployment of the internet application is based on 00040 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 two items: On license issues procuring the number 3 of licenses, and also on network -- City network 4 capacity. 5 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: Explain that 6 license issue. Because a citizen -- a citizen -- 7 certain real estate transactions is going on 8 around him. Houses are being sold. He doesn't 9 know to whom they're being sold to. And he wants 10 to really -- He's concerned, because it's his 11 neighborhood. 12 And he wants -- He knows that 13 there's PHILADOCS program and pilot program that 14 companies -- real estate companies can go into and 15 find out who is doing what in buying of 16 properties. And he doesn't have the time to come 17 down, but he wants to find out. Does he have to 18 get a license? 19 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, 20 Councilman. Neither the public -- members of the 21 public nor anyone who uses this on the outside do 22 not need to procure a license. 23 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: Well, you're 24 talking about licensing. 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The City has 00041 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to purchase a certain number of database licenses. 3 The database product that the system is built 4 around has license issues. 5 You purchase a license based on a 6 number of users. If you increase the number of 7 users, you must increase the number of licenses. 8 that -- 9 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: So you now have a 10 license for 50 users. 11 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 12 correct. 13 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: And you need a 14 license for -- 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Who is using a 16 license? 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The automated 18 systems have data bases that are part of the 19 automated system. So whenever a system is 20 developed, there is software that accompanies -- 21 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: How much is that 22 license for 50 people? 23 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I don't have 24 the figure with me right now. It's thousands. It 25 would be thousands of dollars. 00042 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Point of 3 Information, Councilman. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Your point is 5 recognized by me. 6 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Commissioner 7 Decker. 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 9 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: You have 50 10 people that are in a pilot program. 11 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 12 correct. 13 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I'm a guy that 14 likes to keep it simple. Why can't we make 15 Hallwatch 51? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Again, we have 17 a limited number of licenses. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I'll get one of 19 those folks to give up their subscription or 20 their... whatever. 21 Honestly, Commissioner, it just 22 sounds like there's more to this than we're 23 hearing today. I can't understand why we can't 24 make this information available to a credible 25 organization that provides a unique service to the 00043 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 residents of this region. 3 I'd like you to have the technology 4 people or whoever answer the question why we can't 5 add one more person to this issue, one more 6 organization. Could you get someone to answer 7 that question? 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I will. 9 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN: Madam 10 President, May I? 11 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I still have the 12 floor. 13 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: The Chair 14 recognizes Councilwoman Brown. 15 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Okay. 16 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN: Thank you, 17 Councilman Cohen. 18 This new procedure, was it this way 19 at the door, what we viewed to be an inequity in 20 the process? When the program started three years 21 ago, was it structured in such a way where 22 citizens had to pay and businesses did not? 23 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The pilot was 24 made available when it was implemented several 25 years ago to companies. 00044 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN: To companies. 3 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 4 correct. 5 This is -- And I understand your 6 basic point, the point that you're trying to make. 7 This setup is not unusual across recorders' 8 offices and other counties. 9 The composition of your customer 10 base is such that probably more than 90 percent of 11 our users, 90 percent of our transactions, are 12 really transactions that are filed by companies, 13 including such companies like title insurance 14 companies, banks, mortgage institutions, other 15 kinds of financial institutions. 16 They generally submit documents in 17 bulk. They perform title searches against 18 properties. So there is a rationale behind why 19 things are structured in a certain way. 20 And again, I understand the point 21 that you're all making -- 22 COUNCILMAN COHEN: What was the -- 23 COUNCILWOMAN BROWN: Those are the 24 very types of businesses that are in the best 25 position to pay for that type of service. 00045 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COMMISSIONER DECKER: And they do 3 pay for -- They purchase copies of microfilm and 4 copies of the electronic index. They are paying 5 and procuring other -- the information in other 6 formats. 7 The internet on its own is not going 8 to enable them to conduct the business that they 9 want. 10 We deal -- As I mentioned, our 11 customer base is predominantly large groups of 12 companies. 13 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I thought your 14 main customer base would be the public. Isn't 15 that who you're supposed to be serving? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The 17 customer -- The companies generally perform -- 18 COUNCILMAN COHEN: You mean you're 19 not concerned about serving the people of 20 Philadelphia? 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Of course we 22 are. We have a number of public service terminals 23 and a number of public service rooms that are open 24 every day to citizens. We -- 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And you think 00046 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 that's enough for them, but you're always open to 3 make changes for the convenience of these private 4 companies and law firms. 5 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The companies 6 and law firms are actually -- Their customers are 7 members of the public. They are representing -- 8 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Who could be more 9 important a customer than a citizen of the City of 10 Philadelphia? 11 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The citizens 12 are very important, and we do -- we service a lot 13 of the companies -- 14 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Why do you put 15 such obstacles in the way? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We're not 17 putting obstacles, Councilman. 18 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Why would 19 Mr. Goppelt have this complaint? 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: All of our 21 information is available to the public. That's 22 what we do. We're in the business of making 23 public information available to the public. 24 We have been complimented by the 25 state legislature for the availability of the 00047 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 records and the turnaround time that we provide. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Because they 4 probably don't understand that you're denying the 5 citizens of Philadelphia the information. 6 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We are 7 providing the services. As I am stating, these -- 8 COUNCILMAN COHEN: But not the kind 9 of services that are needed. 10 Mr. Goppelt, on his own without 11 charging the public, is giving the public a 12 valuable new information service. 13 And it seems to me that you're 14 finding every justification to try to say the 15 people that deserve this information are the 50 16 companies, including the law firms that make money 17 out of it, but that even though you're a City 18 agency, you don't feel obligated to make that 19 information easily available to the public. 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, 21 Councilman. I'm definitely not saying that. Our 22 function is to make public records available. And 23 we do -- we do very much fulfill that mandate. We 24 are very concerned about the citizens in the City. 25 All of our staff -- 00048 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Then what is your 3 objection to making the information available to 4 Mr. Goppelt that he spoke about? Why can't you 5 make that information -- 6 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Mr. Goppelt 7 has requested a number -- the information in 8 various formats, and he is not willing to pay the 9 fee that other citizens and companies are -- 10 COUNCILMAN COHEN: But he's not 11 making a -- You mean you don't understand that 12 he's servicing the people of Philadelphia without 13 cost to the City? And you're saying to him, 14 you've got to be -- find a way to make money 15 before we're going to let you service the people 16 of Philadelphia? 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We cannot 18 produce services at no cost. There is a cost to 19 us. The other companies that want to procure -- 20 The other companies and individuals that want to 21 purchase microfilm or electronic records, they pay 22 the fees that are involved. 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: But -- And you 24 want the people of Philadelphia have to pay an 25 additional load of taxes, citizens of Philadelphia 00049 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 are subject to, you want them to pay an extra fee 3 in order to be able to get public information from 4 your department. Is that what you're saying to 5 us? 6 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, sir. 7 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Because 8 Mr. Goppelt does not charge the public for the use 9 of his web site. 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: No, 11 Councilman. That's not what we're saying. We're 12 very interested in -- 13 COUNCIMAN COHEN: Well, that's the 14 way it's coming out. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Councilman Cohen, 16 may I? 17 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I'll yield. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Commissioner 19 Decker -- 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I'm just having 21 great difficulty in understanding why, when it 22 comes to public information, the public is being 23 denied that information. 24 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Commissioner, if 25 you're not willing to share this information with 00050 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Hallwatch, then why don't you just tell us today. 3 You indicated how pleased the House of 4 Representatives to the State Legislature is. 5 If you want your Council to be happy 6 with you, why don't you make this available so we 7 don't need to give it to Hallwatch? Why don't you 8 just make it available through the internet? Do 9 what you need to do. 10 I honestly think there's no -- 11 there's no intelligent rhyme or reason here to 12 deny this information. 13 You have 50 people that you're 14 giving -- From what I understand -- correct me if 15 I'm wrong -- there are 50 people that are provided 16 the same information at no cost in a pilot program 17 that Mr. Goppelt wants, Hallwatch wants. 18 There's no intelligent rationale 19 here not to provide this organization that 20 information, other than you don't want them to 21 have it. 22 Maybe it embarrasses certain 23 agencies in this government. Shame on them. 24 Occasionally they need it, and so do some of the 25 elected officials. 00051 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 But I can tell you: To give this 3 guy a workout, to give this organization a workout 4 and make them have to go and take a lawsuit to me 5 is, from what I know of this organization, it's 6 unjustified. 7 And like I said, why don't you just 8 make it 51 people in the pilot and be done with 9 this. 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Okay. We'll 11 be happy to do that. 12 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: You're going to 13 make 51 people in the pilot? 14 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: And we're done 16 with it. 17 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: He's got the 19 information, withdraws the lawsuit? 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Mm-hmm. 21 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Fine. Thank you, 22 Commissioner. 23 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: The Chair 24 recognizes you. 25 MR. GOPPELT: Would that it were 00052 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 that simple, Councilman Rizzo. I certainly would 3 appreciate being added to PHILADOCS. 4 But I have also requested the 5 electronic version of the recorders index. And 6 that has -- We have run into problems of cost. 7 The Records Department has -- says that they want 8 $400 for this information. 9 I followed the same steps on my home 10 computer that I believe the Records Department 11 would have to follow in theirs. And it took less 12 than two minutes for me to do. Maybe two lines of 13 computer code and one CD. 14 So I estimate that the cost to be 15 $1.74, less than $2.00. So where is this $400 16 figure coming from? 17 I have asked the Records Department 18 or suggested on several times that we get together 19 to discuss a fair price for these records, for the 20 electronic version of the recorders index, and all 21 of my offers have been rebuffed, both by 22 Commissioner Decker, as well as the Law 23 Department. 24 I mean, I would be happy to meet 25 with these folks. But every time I offer it, I 00053 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 hear nothing back, nothing. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Because 4 apparently the Law Department, as well as the 5 Commissioner wants the public information to be 6 held privately by a select group of people. We 7 don't know why they permitted these particular 50. 8 We might have to go into that at some point. 9 But we don't understand why they're 10 posing this. Are you hiding things? It's hard 11 for me to believe that, because Commissioner, as 12 Councilman Nutter and others have remarked, we do 13 like your records generally. 14 And we're stunned to learn of this 15 problem that developed. It was so inconsistent 16 with the record of performance that you've 17 established for yourself in this office. 18 We don't think you have a right -- 19 and I'm going to ask that the lawyer for the City 20 come to the table as soon as we're finished here, 21 because I would like to know whether he's advising 22 a City agency that it does not have to answer 23 questions by City Council. Because that would be 24 very interesting if the City Solicitor's Office 25 wants to protect agencies from questioning 00054 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 publicly by City Council. 3 And if that's his purpose, I would 4 like to know that so we can deal with that 5 situation. 6 Could we have the attorney, Madam 7 President, come to the desk and identify himself? 8 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: He's 9 approaching the table, Councilman. 10 Please identify yourself for the 11 record. 12 MR. BRADICA: My name is Joseph 13 Bradica. I work in the Commercial Litigation Unit 14 at the City of Philadelphia Law Department. 15 Councilman, I did not advise Miss 16 Decker not to answer your question. I advised her 17 not to answer a question from a plaintiff of an 18 active lawsuit against the City Records 19 Department. 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I adopted his 21 question as my question, sir. 22 MR. BRADICA: And that's fine. And 23 once you did that, Commissioner Decker did indeed 24 answer that question. 25 COUNCILMAN COHEN: All right. Thank 00055 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 you for clarifying that. 3 MR. BRADICA: Okay. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And I believe she 5 did that. I believe she did, in fact, answer that 6 question. 7 MR. BRADICA: Once the question was 8 adopted from you, sir, yes, sir, she did indeed -- 9 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Yes, 10 MR. BRADICA: -- answer that 11 question. 12 COUNCILMAN COHEN: That's my 13 understanding. 14 MR. BRADICA: I would like to state, 15 while I have this opportunity -- 16 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I just want to 17 have it clear on the record as to what your advice 18 was on behalf of the Law Development. 19 MR. BRADICA: Yes, sir. 20 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And I accept 21 that. 22 MR. BRADICA: Thank you. 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Thank you. 24 I don't understand why we're having 25 this problem, Miss Decker. You may be excused, 00056 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 attorney, or you can stay with your client, either 3 way. 4 I don't understand why we're having 5 this problem, why you don't say that since he's 6 making information available to the public, of 7 course we'll work with him and give him the same 8 privileges and rights that you're giving these 50 9 people or companies or lawyers or whoever they may 10 be, when he is acting on behalf of the public 11 interest, something I think you should be looking 12 for and you should be thankful that there's 13 something doing it without charging the City for 14 that service, because he is servicing the 15 informational needs of the public without taxes, 16 without charging anything to anybody in the City. 17 Is there anybody else who makes the 18 decisions in the Department of Records other than 19 you? I'm wondering why we don't get a reply from 20 you. 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I'm sorry. 22 Are there other -- anybody else that makes 23 decisions? It depends on the nature of the 24 decision, that I would check some issues with the 25 Law Department and whatever other entity might be 00057 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 appropriate in the decision-making process. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, tell me on 4 this one. It seems to me you have full authority 5 to make this decision; do you not? 6 COMMISSIONER DECKER: As I 7 explained, Councilman, we did -- we will make 8 Mr. Goppelt a user on the online system. But to 9 open the internet up to a very wide -- just an 10 open access, we are not positioned currently to do 11 that. 12 In order to do that, it will require 13 a number of licenses, as well as a different 14 network capacity. At this point in time we simply 15 are not in a position to do that. 16 All of the information, again, is -- 17 the system is available on site for any individual 18 that wants it. We work with members of the 19 public. If they have difficulty coming in to City 20 Hall our staff definitely works with them to get 21 the information they need when they need it, 22 whether that be via telephone, mail or fax 23 request. 24 We fulfill many public service 25 requests to the citizens. The staff is very 00058 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 committed to public service. We understand what 3 our mandate and mission is, to make public records 4 available to the public, and we have consistently 5 done that with great diligence. 6 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Madam President, 7 in view of the answer given, I would like to put 8 clearly in the motion that I think no 9 appropriation for the Record Department should be 10 considered by this Council until this matter is 11 cleared up. 12 To be told by a public official that 13 we have the right to put all the kinds of 14 obstacles in the way of having the public get 15 information, I think is a totally unsatisfactory 16 answer. And I'm very disappointed, Commissioner 17 Decker. 18 But I'm going to be voting no on any 19 effort to provide any appropriations for the 20 Records Department until this matter is cleared up 21 in a way that makes available to the public on the 22 same terms as is available to the 50 private 23 companies. 24 And in fact, I think it ought to be 25 much more preferential terms, to make it available 00059 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to the public free of charge, than it is to make 3 it available to 50 private companies. 4 I would like that there be a 5 response during this hearing time to the question 6 raised by Councilman Ortiz. 7 I would like to ask that the names 8 of the 50 groups now having access be made 9 available today, not later. 10 I would like to ask that this 11 hearing be continued until some time this 12 afternoon or tomorrow for the receipt of that 13 information, including the law firms that get this 14 material free of charge. 15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: At this 16 time the Chair recognizes Councilwoman Tasco. 17 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: I'd just like 18 to ask a question. The service that this pilot 19 program, you provide to these companies, that 20 information is specific to them and their 21 customers, right? 22 COMMISSIONER DECKER: They have 23 access -- They look up the -- They have access to 24 all the recordings that have taken place. And 25 they -- And they generally research the properties 00060 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 for which they are conducting business about, 3 that's correct. 4 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: So the 5 information that they have access to on our system 6 is not available to the general public through 7 them. 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 9 correct. 10 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: All right. So, 11 and if I want some information, I can't go in on 12 the internet and get the same information that 13 they have access to. I have to call your office 14 and get that information? 15 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Or you can 16 come in, call our office, send in a mail request, 17 or a fax request. 18 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: Okay. So, now, 19 what is the difficulty in providing it to the 20 general public? 21 In setting up the pilot program, was 22 there any thought given to providing the 23 information on the internet for the public? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, it was. 25 And as I have mentioned previously, we have two 00061 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 issues that need to be resolved in order to do 3 that. And that is a number of licensing issues. 4 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: What does that 5 mean? 6 COMMISSIONER DECKER: It means that 7 the data base -- an automated system has a number 8 of components. One of them is a data base, and 9 customer software. Licenses have to be purchased 10 for that software. We are under a contractual 11 obligation for the system. We work with vendors 12 who provide the data base services. In order for 13 us to -- and all of those licenses are based on 14 cost. Most typical setup is, the license cost is 15 based on the number of users. 16 We right now do not have the 17 unlimited license capacity to support open 18 internet access from all members -- from anyone 19 who wants to access this information. 20 The second issue that's of concern 21 is network capacity. We simply are not positioned 22 to accept all of that traffic coming in to the 23 system. So they are two -- two issues that at 24 this point make us unable to open this up on a 25 wider basis. 00062 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: If you opened 3 it up and put it on the internet, then you would 4 no longer have the fees and money coming in from 5 the companies, right? Because then they could go 6 on the internet and access it without coming to 7 you to pay a fee; is that true? 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I'm sorry? 9 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: The companies 10 that you have the special program with would no 11 longer have to come and pay a special fee to 12 access the services. They would be able to go in 13 on the internet and get that, right? 14 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Anyone -- in 15 this scenario -- 16 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: Anybody would 17 be able? 18 COMMISSIONER DECKER: -- anyone 19 would be able to come in to access the 20 information, that's correct. 21 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: Okay. So what 22 is the income from the companies that you receive? 23 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We do not have 24 income from the internet component. Many of the 25 companies purchase our microfilm copies of 00063 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 recorded documents, and also they purchase 3 electronic extracts of -- it's known as the 4 recorders index information. 5 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: Is that what 6 Mr. Goppelt is asking for? 7 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Mr. Goppelt 8 has asked for a number of things, and those 9 components are part of his request. 10 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: And so, if he 11 gets that and puts it on the internet on his 12 Hallwatch, it's open to everybody. 13 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I don't know 14 what his intentions are. I can't answer that. 15 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: But I mean, you 16 can go on and program in Hallwatch and you'd get 17 all kinds of information. So the pilot program 18 would no longer be necessary, because they could 19 log on to Hallwatch and get the information. 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I don't know 21 what kind of information and how he would make 22 that available. So, I'm sorry. I'm not in a 23 position to answer that. 24 COUNCILWOMAN TASCO: Okay. Let's 25 forget Mr. Goppelt. Let's just talk about Joe 00064 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Public. 3 I'm with David -- Councilman Cohen 4 in trying to see what information... We don't 5 give access to the channels on T.V. We've been 6 fighting that. We won't give the public access to 7 the government T.V. stations. Now we won't give 8 the public access to the information from the 9 Records Department on the internet. 10 I mean, you know, we're supposed to 11 be a public institution that provides services to 12 taxpayers. They pay for your department. They're 13 not begging. They shouldn't have to come down. 14 I shouldn't have to go down to your 15 office. If I'm in my house and I have a computer, 16 I should be able to access whatever information I 17 want, as a taxpayer. 18 And it seems to me, instead of 19 trying to block that, every effort should be made 20 to give public access to the information. 21 And I think it's awful that we're 22 having a lawsuit, spending taxpayers' dollars, to 23 prevent someone getting information who is a 24 citizen and entitled to the information. 25 Whether you get it off the internet 00065 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 or you walk down the street and come into your 3 office and get it, it's just like the old days 4 when we were fighting to get voter registration 5 forms. 6 You know, those days are gone. And 7 we had to fight those days. I thought we had 8 moved into the 20th century. 9 So I think you ought to go back and 10 figure out how you're going to do it. And I think 11 the lawsuit ought to be settled. I don't like 12 paying for my tax dollars on a frivolous suit on 13 something that you all can work out. I think it's 14 a waste of tax dollars. 15 So, I agree with Councilman Cohen. 16 You all better figure it out. Thank you, Madam 17 President. 18 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: You're 19 welcome. 20 The Chair recognizes Councilman 21 Ortiz. 22 COUNCILMAN ORTIZ: No, ma'am. I'm 23 fine. 24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Councilman 25 Nutter. 00066 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Thank you, Madam 3 Chair. 4 Commissioner Decker, let me ask a 5 couple of questions as a follow-up to Councilwoman 6 Tasco. 7 The information that we're talking 8 about -- And if I get the terminology incorrect, 9 you'll tell me. This PHILADOCS, what is it? 10 COMMISSIONER DECKER: PHILADOCS is 11 an automated system. It's used both -- in two 12 ways. It's used to process the documents that 13 come -- land documents that come into our 14 department to be recorded, such as deeds and 15 mortgages. 16 And once that information is 17 processed through a series of work flow steps, a 18 record is stored, and that information is then 19 made available. It becomes public record. 20 So that would include the most 21 recent real estate transactions that have occurred 22 against particular properties and with certain 23 individuals. 24 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: At what point 25 does the information become public record, after 00067 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 your department has processed it or while it's 3 still in a processing status? 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: After -- 5 Immediately after it has become processed. 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. And is 7 any of the information within this PHILADOCS 8 system either proprietary or confidential? 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The public 10 record component is not proprietary -- it is not 11 proprietary, and it is public information. 12 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. When the 13 companies access PHILADOCS, are they accessing the 14 now processed records that are at that point 15 public information? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 17 correct. 18 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. So 19 there's nothing in the system that either the 20 companies or an individual citizen should not see. 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 22 correct. 23 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Let's talk about 24 the licensing issue, as well as the network 25 capacity issue. 00068 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 In a smaller way -- And you 3 obviously work directly with the Mayor's Office of 4 Information Services. We have a consultant that 5 works with us here in City Council, and they work 6 with Moise. 7 It's my understanding, even for our 8 computers in our offices, in our Council offices, 9 that when you want to put internet access or a 10 variety of other programs on our computers, it 11 only happens after there is a license agreement 12 established either for the entire system in City 13 Council or even for that particular office. 14 Is that the issue that you're 15 dealing with, with regard to licensing? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 17 correct. 18 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: And Councilwoman 19 Tasco's point was very interesting. How did you 20 decide on the 50 companies or 50 users? 21 COMMISSIONER DECKER: It was based 22 on what we -- the funding that was available. 23 That's how much money we had to purchase 50 24 licenses, that number of licenses. 25 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: So the city had 00069 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to buy 50 licenses to allow these 50 companies to 3 have access? 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 5 correct. 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. Now, do 7 you have any knowledge or information with regard 8 to the City's web site, and whether or not there 9 are any licensing issues related to -- I mean, 10 obviously, the general public can access the 11 City's web site. 12 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Mm-hmm. 13 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Do you have any 14 information about that? Is that mixing apples and 15 oranges in this discussion? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes, I believe 17 it is. 18 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. If the 19 public was going to have access to PHILADOCS, how 20 would something like that be handled in the 21 context of the licensing issue? 22 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We would need 23 the resources to be able to purchase additional 24 licenses, assuming the objective is unlimited 25 access to the system. 00070 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 We would need the resources to 3 enable to us purchase an unlimited number of 4 licenses into that system. 5 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: How would you 6 know how many licenses to purchase? Because you 7 never really know how many people are going to use 8 the system. 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We would look 10 at -- work the data base licensing structure to 11 determine whether they offer a structure, a 12 purchasing structure that would enable unlimited 13 usage. 14 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. So if 15 this were going to be open to the public, what's 16 your estimate on what it would cost, from a 17 licensing standpoint, to allow the entire public 18 access? 19 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I don't have 20 an exact figure, but we're probably talking about 21 tens of thousands of dollars. 22 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: For the 50 23 companies and the 50 licenses that you purchased, 24 how much did each license cost? 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I'm sorry, 00071 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Councilman. 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: You have 50 4 companies. 5 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: You bought 50 7 licenses. 8 How much did each license cost? 9 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Our total -- 10 I'm sorry, Councilman. I don't have that number 11 at this point, but we do have -- I can get that to 12 you. I can get the annual maintenance cost for 13 the number of licenses that is currently 14 supporting the system. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. You can 16 send that to the Chair, and we'll then have that. 17 But you believe that to open the system to the 18 entire public we're talking tens of thousands of 19 dollars, is that -- 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 21 correct. 22 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: -- is that your 23 belief? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: For the 25 licenses. 00072 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: For the 3 licenses. 4 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Which is one 5 of the issues. 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. The 7 second issue is network capacity; is that correct? 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 9 correct. 10 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Now, the City, 11 again, has a server. It has a web site. And I 12 think all of us have had the experience that at 13 certain points in the day when there's 14 particularly heavy traffic within the government, 15 the system either slows down or from time to time 16 stops. 17 Was your system set up to deal with 18 some estimated amount of, quote, unquote, traffic 19 in the system? 20 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. Yes, it 21 was, Councilman. 22 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Do you know what 23 the capacity is? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 50 25 users. 00073 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: That's a 3 coincidence. 4 And so, if a decision was made to 5 open this access, there are two things that would 6 have to happen: One, the City would have to 7 purchase enough licenses to allow for the access; 8 and two, it sounds like you will probably need 9 some upgrade in either hardware or software. 10 I'm assuming working either with 11 Moise or through whatever consultant Department of 12 Records utilizes, to allow the system to then 13 function for the possibly thousands of people, 14 additional people to use the system; is that 15 right? 16 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 17 correct. 18 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. I'm not 19 sure if you'll be able to answer this question, 20 but is there a particular position of the 21 Administration on this issue of complete and open 22 access by the public to the PHILADOCS system? I 23 mean, if there's not a position, don't try to 24 create one at the moment. 25 COMMISSIONER DECKER: At this point 00074 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 there is not a position. 3 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Okay. So there 4 are actually three things that need to happen: 5 One, the City Administration has to make a 6 decision that they wish to make available this 7 information to the general public, one; two, the 8 City Administration and in conjunction with City 9 Council would have to decide to pay for it, 10 because you need the licenses; and three, the 11 administration would then have to decide to 12 acquire either the necessary software and/or 13 hardware to allow the system -- Because once you 14 make the first decision, and once you make the 15 second decision, you're on your way toward making 16 this happen. 17 But it then makes no sense to buy 18 all the licenses, having made a decision to open 19 the system to the public, and it doesn't then have 20 the capacity to function. 21 So there's a third cost and 22 procedure that you need to go through to open the 23 system to the entire public; is that correct? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: That's 25 correct. 00075 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: All right. 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Point of 4 Information. 5 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: This is a point 6 of information, not to be confused with a Point of 7 Inquiry. 8 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, I 9 understand it. And maybe I have it wrong. And if 10 so, I'd like to be corrected. 11 I understand there's a request by 12 Mr. Goppelt that that would involve a single 13 license. It would not involve everything that's 14 been talked about, about making it available to 15 thousands and thousands of users. 16 It would be made available to 17 Mr. Goppelt who on his own is making it available 18 to the public. Isn't that the fact here, 19 Mr. Goppelt? 20 MR. GOPPELT: Well, the Commissioner 21 has mentioned problems with network capacity, or 22 cited network capacity and licensing issues as a 23 reason for not making this information available 24 to the public. 25 And I would offer her and this City 00076 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Council, if she gives me the electronic form of 3 the recorders index, I will make that information 4 available to the public tomorrow. If she gives it 5 to me today, I will make it available to the 6 public tomorrow. If she can't do it, for whatever 7 reason, I can. 8 COUNCILMAN COHEN: And without this 9 huge extra cost of licenses? 10 MR. GOPPELT: Councilman, I've used 11 free software, as opposed to paid software which 12 the City uses. So for me, I don't face a user 13 limit the way that they might do. 14 However, I did want to make one 15 observation about the licensing issue. In my 16 experience, the limit on the number of licenses 17 usually refers to the number of simultaneous 18 users. In other words, the number of people who 19 can access the system at one time -- 20 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. GOPELT: -- can't be any higher 22 than a certain number, in this case perhaps 50. I 23 don't know what the details of their license is. 24 But in that particular case, all you 25 need to do is not to say: Okay, these 50 00077 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 companies are permanently assigned licenses. You 3 just buy enough licenses for your peak demand, and 4 just let any member of the public use it. 5 So, I don't know what the details of 6 the licensing are -- 7 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: But, 8 Mr. Goppelt... 9 MR. GOPPELT: Yeah. 10 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I think that 11 that goes back to item number two, which -- and 12 Councilman, I'm sorry to talk across your Point of 13 Information. I just want to keep track of the 14 traffic. 15 It sounds like Mr. Goppelt is even 16 saying, there will be a need for the City to buy 17 some additional licenses. 18 The question is, how many. And I 19 think his point is, you know, whether you buy 20 10,000 of them, whether you buy 5,000 of them, 21 maybe -- I mean, from a computer standpoint, you 22 figure out what your peak times are, try to 23 estimate how many licenses you need. 24 But I don't think we get around the 25 discussion or the reality that the City will have 00078 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 to buy some additional number of licenses, the 3 number which we do not know at the moment. Is 4 that a fair statement? 5 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Well, before they 6 answer, I would like to raise this one question. 7 It seems to me that if you picked 50, go through 8 the 50, get rid of one of them, and have 9 Mr. Goppelt be the 50th, I think that would deal 10 with the situation now. That's as I see it. 11 I'd like Mr. Goppelt, when he 12 answers the... portion of the question, to also 13 answer that. 14 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I appreciate 15 that. Or we just buy one more license. I mean, 16 if you have 50... 17 And this, I think, all goes back to 18 my earlier point of inquiry, which is, it appears 19 that we've identified the three main issues. City 20 has to decide it wants to do it. City has to buy 21 some additional number of licenses which we won't 22 figure out at this -- 23 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I don't concede 24 the second point. 25 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I'm sorry, 00079 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Councilman? 3 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I don't concede 4 this second point. I don't concede that the City 5 has to buy any additional licenses. 6 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I understand, 7 Councilman. 8 MR. GOPPELT: I think that may be 9 true, Councilman Nutter. 50 simultaneous users on 10 a web site is a lot. 11 On my web site, which is visited by 12 500 people a day, I would say that the maximum 13 number of people who access the web site at any 14 one time is maybe 8 or 10. 15 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Mm-hmm. 16 MR. GOPPELT: And I think another 17 thing to keep in mind -- 18 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Well, we 19 would probably benefit -- And I don't know that 20 the Commissioner is going to have this at her 21 fingertips. I'm not sure that any of us who are 22 talking about this know how many of the 50 are 23 simultaneously using the system at any one point 24 in time, nor do we know what the general usage of 25 the PHILADOCS system is in general. But I'll go 00080 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 back to my earlier point of inquiry, which is, the 3 City has to decide to open the system up. 4 COUNCILMAN COHEN: I don't think the 5 City has any choice. I think the City's under a 6 legal obligation. 7 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I understand 8 that. I'm not making the City's argument. I'm 9 just trying to identify the issues. 10 Decision on opening the system up; 11 continued discussion about the licensing issue, 12 whether you need any more licenses: one more, ten 13 more, fifty more. Doesn't really matter to me; 14 and three, if there's a traffic issue and a 15 network capacity issue, that has to be dealt with. 16 So I'm going to go back to my 17 original point, which is, somewhere between the 18 Commissioner, Mr. Goppelt, Rob Dubow, Moise, and 19 probably the Managing Director's Office, and 20 possibly the Law Department at City Council, it 21 appears that there can be an answer and a 22 resolution to the public's benefit to this 23 particular issue. 24 MR. GOPPELT: Well, like you, 25 Councilman, I'm optimistic that a resolution is 00081 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 possible. 3 The B.R.T. has recently 4 substantially improved their web site. I don't 5 think we heard anything from them complaining 6 about insurmountable issues in licensing, and so 7 on. 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: I understand 9 that. I'm very familiar with their recent 10 upgrade. 11 MR. GOPPELT: I mean, not that I'm 12 best buddies with the B.R.T., but in this 13 particular case I think they did a good job, and 14 the Records Department would be well to follow 15 their example. 16 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Mr. Dubow, will 17 you take some level of responsibility for making 18 sure that all these parties get together and seek 19 to resolve this issue? 20 Councilman Cohen has raised a very 21 serious matter here this morning, not only with 22 regard to the funding issue for records, but 23 you've heard all of the comments and questions by 24 the Council Members on this particular issue. 25 There needs to be a resolution. The 00082 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 public should have access. I wanted to be sure 3 the information we're talking about here is not 4 private, proprietary, or confidential information; 5 it is all public record and information. 6 You know, if we're not going to be 7 in the 21st century, we can at least be in the 8 later part of the 20th century with this. 9 And, I mean, we don't have to make 10 this into a Federal case before we can get a 11 resolution. 12 MR. DUBOW: Rob Dubow, the Budget 13 Director. 14 Yes, I will make sure we work on 15 this with Council and make sure the issue is 16 resolved. 17 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: But you 18 understand, I mean, because I know you keep track 19 of the budget process. 20 MR. DUBOW: Yes. Time is of the 21 essence. 22 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: There's a 23 timeliness to this. 24 MR. DUBOW: Yes. 25 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: This is not the 00083 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 general -- I'm not accusing you of this -- This is 3 not the general: We'll work on it; we'll get back 4 to you the second of nowhere. I mean, this is an 5 actual real, live issue. 6 MR. DUBOW: I don't know what you 7 mean by that. 8 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: Yeah. 9 This is a real live issue that needs 10 a resolution as quickly as possible. And we're 11 going to need to hear back from you and from the 12 Commissioner that there's been a resolution. 13 And I'm sure many of the Members are 14 going to want to know formally or informally from 15 Mr. Goppelt or anyone else that's concerned about 16 this, that there is a legitimate, workable 17 resolution to this particular issue. 18 MR. DUBOW: I understand the time 19 constraints and how it ties into the budget 20 process. 21 COUNCILMAN NUTTER: All right. 22 Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. 23 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: You're 24 welcome. 25 The chair recognizes Councilman 00084 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Rizzo. 3 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Thank you, Madam 4 Chair. I'd just like to go back over what I 5 believe we agreed on today. You're going to 6 authorize Mr. Goppelt to be the 51st member of 7 this group. 8 But I'd like to back up a minute and 9 ask about this three-year-long pilot program. I 10 question the appropriateness of providing this 11 service to 50 people with no revenue or no 12 reimbursement at all to the City of Philadelphia. 13 So I'd like you to check with the Law Department 14 to see what the appropriateness of this lengthy -- 15 I can understand, like Mr. Goppelt said, a short 16 pilot program, but to have one that's lasted three 17 years and spend taxpayers money to support the 18 private sector in many cases. 19 And I think also what you need to do 20 is look at these 50 users to see -- And I'm sure 21 the technology people can look at the actual 22 usages of those 50 customers, those free 23 customers, to make sure that they're just, you 24 know, they have it, they don't use it, we're 25 paying something for it. 00085 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 I'd rather see someone have it 3 that's going to use it. So, I think you really 4 need to look at the usages of those 50 to see, 5 just because they're in the deal doesn't mean they 6 should stay in it. 7 I'm sure that there have been other 8 people that have had an interest, that you're 9 saying, well, we have our 50, there's no room for 10 you. 11 But if you have people that have 12 used it once a month or once a day or once a week, 13 I question the need for an organization to have 14 that, especially for free. 15 The other issue that Mr. Goppelt 16 brought up was the fact that you want to charge 17 him. And I'd like to understand that better. Is 18 that a one-time charge of $400, or is this an 19 ongoing charge? 20 And Commissioner, since you've been 21 so gracious to agree Hallwatch to come on, isn't 22 there some accommodation that you could give to 23 make this problem go away, get the lawyer doing 24 something else rather than fooling around with 25 this? 00086 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 I'd really like you to try to, if 3 you're going to go 90 percent here, go the extra 4 little effort, and let's make everybody happy here 5 today. 6 COMMISSIONER DECKER: To answer your 7 two questions: First question, about the pilot 8 being made available to companies at no cost, I 9 would like to point out, the reason that that was 10 done is because we knew that the capacity, the 11 network capacity simply was not there, and we are 12 unable to guarantee performance. So we do 13 experience some down time. And for that reason, 14 we did not establish a charge for that service. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Well, you might 16 want to reconsider that. And I would appreciate 17 you providing to the Chair a report for 18 information systems or your own technology 19 people -- I'd like to see a report on exactly in 20 the last three years what the usages have been. 21 And let's come up with a capacity recommendation. 22 And if there's some that haven't 23 been using it, maybe you need to call that list 24 and don't need the 51st license. 25 And that's an interesting subject in 00087 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 itself, being a government. I'm sure -- I hope 3 that we're absolutely required to operate with 4 those constraints to buy licenses, just like the 5 private sector. 6 I would hope the Law Department has 7 looked at that very carefully to see exactly what 8 we're required to do and what we're not doing. 9 I don't know if licensing always 10 applies to the degree that it does in the private 11 sector, for our government. So, I'd like that 12 issue. 13 But I would like to see, when you're 14 providing the names of the 50 organizations, what 15 exactly they're doing, their utilization of this 16 arrangement that they have. 17 And also, I didn't mean to interrupt 18 you, but if you could answer the rest of the 19 questions in the monetary requirement that 20 Hallwatch may have to get this online; and to give 21 it to them in the format that he needs it to make 22 it work, Commissioner; no obstacles here, if you 23 could, please. 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: I think your 25 second question was about a $400 charge. That was 00088 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 for procuring copies, electronic copies of index 3 information. 4 And there is a calculation that's 5 used. When we establish a fee, it's really based 6 on labor costs, on materials and usage time, 7 computer usage time. 8 So, there are three basic categories 9 of costs that are used in an algorithm to 10 determine fees. The computer usage time is based 11 on each hour of wall clock computer time. And 12 that's a certain fee which is established. 13 The extract comes from a mainframe, 14 and that the fee is based on that particular 15 extract, what is generated by that extract. 16 And the labor cost, if there's any 17 labor involved in monitoring the job, submitting a 18 job, entering variable information. All those 19 charges are also included in that. 20 The other element is the amount of 21 data that someone is requesting. So, there's a 22 difference -- I don't know where $400 is coming 23 from. There's no, in a sense, set fee. The fee 24 is based on the amount of data. 25 Someone may request an extract of 00089 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 the entire data base, which goes back to... The 3 electronic database goes back to 1976. Another 4 requester may request a month's worth of data. 5 Another requester may request a year's worth of 6 data. 7 So the actual cost for... called a 8 job run, really depends on the amount of data that 9 is being requested. 10 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Commissioner, is 11 Mr. Goppelt asking for anything different than the 12 other 50 people? And if he isn't, then let's give 13 it to him. 14 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Sure. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Because you're 16 not charging 50 other people for what you just 17 described to me. 18 So I don't understand why we need to 19 be aggressive in this particular case, when you're 20 not being aggressive at all in the other 50 21 situations here. 22 COMMISSIONER DECKER: We already 23 said we would give Mr. Goppelt online access to 24 the system. He had a number of other requests, 25 and I was merely trying to explain what his other 00090 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 requests were. 3 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I understand 4 that. And that's my question. Is he asking for 5 anything above and beyond what you're giving the 6 other 50 people? If he is, then that we have to 7 negotiate. 8 COMMISSIONER DECKER: He's asking 9 for extracts of other kinds of data, and for which 10 he does not want to pay a fee, which other 11 individuals and companies are willing to pay. 12 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Are any of those 13 50 people paying you for any additional 14 information? 15 COMMISSIONER DECKER: The online 16 system is a different system. We've already 17 agreed to give him access to that. 18 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Okay. 19 Mr. Goppelt? 20 MR. GOPPELT: All I want to do is 21 pay a fair price for the data. The Commissioner 22 has cited a price and cited components in the 23 price of labor and computer wall time. 24 I guess my home computer must be 25 really fast, because I was able to do a month's 00091 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 worth of data in under two minutes. 3 So I don't know what the matter with 4 the City mainframe is that, you know, this is 5 going to require hours and hours of wall time. 6 I think what I would like to see 7 from the Records Department is for them to, quote, 8 unquote, come clean about what their costs are. 9 I think it's a positive step forward 10 to talk about labor cost, materials and computer 11 time. And I liked Councilman Nutter's suggestion 12 that all of us get together and talk about these 13 things. 14 I have offered in the past to speak 15 with the Commissioner and the Department about 16 negotiating a fair price. My offers were ignored. 17 So I think that's the way to go, for 18 me to sit down with them and negotiate a fair 19 price with the computer people present so that 20 knowledgeable people are talking about the true 21 costs. 22 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: I agree that 23 since you're providing this as a public service, 24 that the costs should be fair, the costs should be 25 not inflated, there should be -- Especially when 00092 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 we are giving this to 50 people at no cost at this 3 moment. 4 If it's a matter of revenue, then 5 let's start sending the 50 people a bill in the 6 pilot. If they want it, they can keep it. And 7 maybe they need to start paying for it or doing 8 whatever -- whatever is required here. 9 But I just don't understand a 10 three-year pilot with no end in sight. 11 Commissioner, I suggest you end it 12 and come up with a reasonable cost to -- 13 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Point of 14 information. 15 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Point of 16 Information. 17 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: The Chair 18 recognizes Councilman Cohen. 19 COUNCILMAN COHEN: In the public 20 interest, the Zoning Board, after going through 21 the same kind of contortions that I believe the 22 Records Department is going through, agreed to 23 make available to community organizations without 24 charge the cost of transcripts wherever a 25 community organization had opposition to a zoning 00093 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 change and lost before the Board and was appealing 3 it. 4 Because it's in the interests of the 5 public. The City ought to be paying 6 Mr. Goppelt. The nerve of you compelling somebody 7 who's doing a public service to pay for it is 8 outrageous. 9 Why should Mr. Goppelt, who's taking 10 over what the City ought to be doing to make this 11 available, saving the City, but according to your 12 testimony, Commissioner, thousands upon thousands 13 upon thousands of dollars. He's doing it and 14 you're quibbling with him over a few dollars? 15 It makes absolutely no sense 16 whatever to be involved in this situation. There 17 ought to be no need to work out anything. 18 Mr. Goppelt isn't going to be 19 charging the people of Philadelphia a service fee. 20 He's doing it for nothing. 21 So the City doesn't want the 22 taxpayer to know what's going on? The City wants 23 to keep taxpayers from having the benefit of 24 volunteer citizens contribution to their 25 knowledge? You ought to be encouraging 00094 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Mr. Goppelt. You ought to be asking him: What is 3 it costing you, and the City will pay it? 4 It's a tremendous bargain for the 5 City and for the citizens. And I resent deeply 6 your trying to keep my constituents in the 17th 7 Ward, where I'm the Democratic Leader, from 8 getting the necessary information. 9 They pay millions and millions of 10 dollars a year in taxes, yet you want to deny them 11 this information. I just don't understand that 12 kind of public service, Commissioner. I really 13 don't. 14 I think you ought to be negotiating 15 with Mr. Goppelt what are his costs and how can 16 the City make up to him for the wonderful service 17 he's offering the citizens without taxing them, 18 without requiring them to make a payment. 19 COUNCILMAN RIZZO: Commissioner, I 20 would hope that you can work this out, because I 21 can see a hearing on this specific issue coming, 22 maybe even tomorrow, a resolution to ask for a 23 hearing to have everybody in here. 24 I would hope that we don't have to 25 do that. But I would ask my colleague, Councilman 00095 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Cohen and any other Councilman that's interested 3 in this issue to join me. 4 But I would hope, based on your 5 response so far, I believe you're going to work 6 this out. And I think you understand how 7 important this is to your Council. 8 Even though we talk about how 9 pleased the State Legislature is, make this 10 Council happy, make our constituents happy, and do 11 what you need to do to get this thing working, 12 please, or you'll have a hearing. 13 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Madam President, 14 may I suggest that we pick a date no longer than 15 two weeks from today for a report back at open 16 hearing by the Department of Records as to the 17 disposition of this question, earlier if possible, 18 but a date no later. I don't, but you have the 19 calendar, Madam President. 20 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: I'm 21 looking at our calendar. April the 8th, at 22 1 o'clock. Commissioner, would you be ready by 23 then? 24 COMMISSIONER DECKER: Yes. 25 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Very well. 00096 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Thank you. Are there any other questions or 3 comments from Members of the Committee? 4 (No response.) 5 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Thank you 6 very much, Mr. Goppelt. Thank you. Thank you, 7 Commissioner. 8 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: The prison 9 system is next. Good morning, Commissioner. 10 COMMISSIONER KING: Good morning, 11 Madam Council President. 12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Every 13 member has a copy of your written testimony. We 14 will make certain that the stenographer has it. 15 He will transcribe it in full. I would ask you to 16 please summarize your testimony, if you will. 17 COMMISSIONER KING: I have a little 18 something that I want to read very quickly. 19 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: That would 20 be fine. I'm asking that you summarize rather 21 than read the entire testimony. Thank you. 22 COMMISSIONER KING: Good morning, 23 President Verna and Members of City Council. 24 I'm Leon King, Acting Commissioner 25 of the Philadelphia Prison System. Thank you for 00097 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 this opportunity to present this testimony 3 regarding our fiscal 2004 year operating budget, 4 and to briefly share -- 5 COUNCILMAN COHEN: Could you speak a 6 little slower, please. 7 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: 8 Councilman, I'm sorry. We can't hear you. I 9 don't know if your microphone is on. 10 COMMISSIONER KING: He's asking me 11 to slow down. 12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Oh, I'm 13 sorry. Okay. Please slow down. 14 COMMISSIONER KING: -- and to 15 briefly share with you the new vision and goals of 16 the Philadelphia Prison System. 17 Sitting here with me at the table is 18 Press Grooms, Deputy Commissioner for Policy and 19 Operations; Dan Rakowski, Director of 20 Administrative Services; and Ed Siemanski, Fiscal 21 Officer. Also present in the room is our General 22 Counsel and three other Deputy Commissioners who 23 assist me in running the system. 24 By way of background, I was 25 appointed Acting Commissioner by Mayor Street on 00098 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 December 9, 2002, with the support of former 3 Managing Director Estelle Richmond, at the 4 recommendation of former Commissioner Thomas 5 Costello, who retired in December after 30 years 6 of service with the system. 7 I began my employment with the City 8 in 1991 as an Assistant City Solicitor in the 9 Claims Division of the Law Department. 10 In 1993 I was recruited to be one of 11 the founding members of the Civil Rights Unit of 12 the Law Department where I was later promoted to 13 Deputy City Solicitor. 14 While still litigating cases on 15 behalf of the prison system, the Police 16 Department, the Sheriff's Department, and the 17 Clerk of Quarter Sessions, I was appointed General 18 Counsel of the prison system in 1997 by then City 19 Solicitor Stephanie Franklin Suber. 20 In that capacity, I became the lead 21 attorney representing the City in the Jackson vs. 22 Hendrick consent decree litigation, and the 23 primary attorney assisting our outside counsel in 24 the Harris litigation. 25 Late in 2001 I negotiated, along 00099 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 with Director Richmond and Commissioner Costello, 3 the final settlement of the Jackson litigation, 4 ending over 30 years of Court supervision over the 5 system. 6 Over the years in my capacity as 7 General Counsel, and from my active involvement in 8 the consent decree cases, I became familiar with 9 almost all areas of prison operations, and have 10 been an integral part of the management team since 11 1997. 12 For about a year in 2001 I also 13 served as a Deputy City Solicitor in the Labor and 14 Employment Unit of the Law Department, becoming 15 familiar with human resources issues as they 16 relate to the Police Department, the prison 17 system, and other City departments. 18 Since being appointed Acting 19 Commissioner, I, along with Deputy Commissioner 20 Grooms, Deputy Commissioners John Murphy, Elsa 21 Legessa, Allen Appel, and our new General Counsel 22 Michael Resnick, have begun on a mission of 23 accelerating the transformation and transition of 24 the system from one overseen by the courts and not 25 fully able to utilize its substantial internal 00100 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 talent, to one that has learned from the lessons 3 of the past, recognizes that it cannot forgot 4 those lessons, and is highly motivated to stress 5 professionalism, excellence, adherence to the 6 mandates of the United States Constitution, being 7 even more in tune with the needs of our inmate 8 population, and supporting and recognizing the 9 strengths of our staff. 10 At the same time we are sending a 11 message to staff that behavior that does not 12 comport with the system's goals will not be 13 tolerated. 14 We are also, of course, committed to 15 grooming the leaders of the future who will have 16 be to be ready to take on more responsibility in 17 the next three years as we lose all four of our 18 Deputy Commissioners due to the DROP program. 19 With the full support of Deputy 20 Commissioners Grooms, Murphy and Appel, I'm very 21 proud to have acceded in obtaining the appointment 22 of Deputy Commissioner Lagess, shortly after my 23 appointment as acting Commissioner. She is an 24 historic first and strong evidence of the change 25 that has come about in the system. 00101 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 She was the first warden appointed 3 in her own right -- female warden appointed in 4 other own right in the 400-plus years of the 5 system some years ago, and now she is the first 6 female Deputy Commissioner. 7 Since my appointment we have also 8 taken direct responsibility for supervising and 9 overseeing health services within the system for 10 the first time since 1979. 11 Taking this responsibility very 12 seriously and utilizing our heretofore largely 13 untapped internal talent, we have taken decisive 14 steps to improve the delivery of health care in 15 the six short weeks since this responsibility was 16 officially turned over to us. 17 I have set the goal in the system to 18 become a national model of health care in the 19 correctional setting. 20 I have instructed that the system 21 move forward immediately to obtain accreditation 22 with the American Correctional Association, and 23 the National Commission on Correctional Health 24 Care. 25 We will also be fully implementing a 00102 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 new Hepatitis C policy within the system in the 3 next week or so to more effectively treat those 4 inmates who are affected by this disease. 5 We have also taken limited steps to 6 explore the feasibility of altering our system of 7 health care by studying the delivery of health 8 care in other jurisdictions. 9 We are also committed to 10 re-evaluating services available to inmates that 11 may affect recidivism and are seeking to make 12 re-entry and discharge planning an organized 13 targeted process to reduce recidivism. 14 Symbolic of our new mission and 15 goals, we have moved our next correctional officer 16 graduating exercises from the inside of the 17 Philadelphia Industrial Correctional Center to a 18 public ceremony which is going to be held at the 19 Convention Center on April 11th. 20 We are going to showcase our new 21 correctional officer graduating class and publicly 22 announce our new goals. The Mayor, the District 23 Attorney, the City Controller, and the Police 24 Commissioner are going to join us as we move 25 forward to the future. 00103 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 We have extended an official 3 invitation to each Member of Council to join us 4 and show your support at our graduation. We would 5 be honored to have all members attend. 6 Our budget request for fiscal year 7 '04 is $185,234,000, and represents a $10 million 8 increase over our fiscal year '03 estimated budget 9 request. 10 This reflects a phase-in of 11 additional full-time staff for our new women's 12 detention facility which will open in the first 13 half of fiscal '04, anticipated increases in the 14 cost of improved medical care for inmates, and 15 increased maintenance costs connected with the 16 opening of the women's detention facility. 17 This concludes my testimony. And I 18 and my staff are available for any questions. 19 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Thank you 20 very much, Commissioner. 21 Could you please explain how you are 22 able to operate in FY '04 with 102 fewer positions 23 than you were budgeted for in FY '03? 24 Your FY '04 personnel services 25 budget reflects approximately $1.2 million in 00104 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 delay in filling new positions and turnover 3 reductions, which is equivalent to 40 vacancies 4 for the entire year. 5 I ask, is your budget sufficient to 6 maintain a safe and secure environment in the 7 prisons? 8 COMMISSIONER KING: Yes. Our budget 9 is sufficient to maintain a safe and secure 10 environment in the prisons. 11 Our budget is adequate to maintain a 12 safe and secure environment in the prisons. And 13 I'll ask Mr. Siemanski to explain that technical 14 question about the staffing issue in the budget. 15 MR. SIEMANSKI: Edward Siemanski, 16 Fiscal Officer. Regarding the question to the 17 number of positions, those positions weren't 18 filled during fiscal '03. 19 And since the population has dropped 20 considerably since the budget was proposed, we're 21 going to reallocate the staff from various 22 facilities. And we expect to be able to provide 23 adequate security with the number in the fiscal 24 2004 budget. 25 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: You said 00105 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 the population has decreased? What is the 3 population, and what was it last year? 4 MR. SIEMANSKI: The current 5 population today is 7,107 inmates. And that's a 6 decrease from back in September about 800 or 900 7 inmates. 8 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: I'm sorry? 9 MR. SIEMANSKI: 800 or 900 less 10 inmates than we had in September. This is the 11 lowest population -- 12 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: How do we 13 account for it going down? 14 MR. SIEMANSKI: There are many -- 15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: That's 16 quite a bit. 17 MR. SIEMANSKI: There are many 18 suggestions going around. People have speculated 19 that it may be Operation Safe Streets. It may 20 have been the cold winter. We're not prepared to 21 state on the record what it was. But those are 22 the two things that come to mind that may be 23 different than they were in past years. 24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Well, 25 we'll be getting warm weather. 00106 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 MR. SIEMANSKI: Right. And our 3 prediction is that the end of March, we're going 4 to look to see if the population starts to go up, 5 and it looks like it's starting to go back up. 6 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: And you 7 feel comfortable with the budget that you 8 presently have, even if the population increases? 9 MR. SIEMANSKI: Well, it depends on 10 how much the population increases. 11 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Okay. 12 MR. SIEMANSKI: If it goes back up, 13 you know, 1500 inmates or something like that, 14 we'd have an issue. 15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: All right. 16 Commissioner, you are projecting to spend $7.6 17 million on maintenance contracts for C.F.C.F. and 18 Women's Detention Facility. 19 This represents an increase of 20 almost 30 percent over last year's cost. Would 21 you please tell us: Would it be better to bring 22 the maintenance back in-house? Would it be more 23 cost effective? 24 MR. KING: I don't think that it 25 would be more cost effective to bring the 00107 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 maintenance in-house. 3 I believe our experience has been 4 that the service we get for the money we pay is 5 pretty good service. And no, I don't think that 6 that would be more cost effective. 7 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: How many 8 people are in the maintenance contract? 9 MR. KING: For W.D.F. and C.F.C.F., 10 how many people? 11 Okay. Roseanne, could you come up. 12 Do you know what that number is? 13 We don't have that number. We can 14 get it for you. 15 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: You'll 16 provide it to us, please. 17 MR. KING: Sure. 18 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Please 19 explain the dramatic increase in prison health 20 services. I believe on Page 45-30 it is now going 21 to be over $42 million. 22 So if we have less inmates, wouldn't 23 that also be affected? 24 MR. KING: I believe that the 25 increase in the additional funds for medical came 00108 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 about as a re-negotiation of the contract back in 3 FY '03 when the population was higher. 4 And Miss Steiker from the M.D.O.'s 5 office, I believe, handled all of that, and she 6 can answer that question more specifically. 7 MS. STEIKER: This is Ellen Steiker, 8 Deputy Managing Director. Good morning. 9 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Good 10 morning. 11 MS. STEIKER: The major components 12 of the increase are predominantly the opening of 13 W.D.F., which had a significant staffing impact. 14 Now, we'll be looking at that in 15 light of some of the population declines. But 16 when you open a new facility, you have to staff it 17 properly with health workers. So that was one. 18 The second piece is personnel cost, 19 just the cost of living increases for personnel 20 under the collective bargaining agreement. 21 And the third area is malpractice 22 insurance. That has been a real wild card for the 23 prisons, as well as for the rest of Pennsylvania. 24 It's not a problem that's related specifically to 25 the prisons. But from 2002 to 2003 our 00109 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 malpractice premiums have more than doubled. And 3 so, in this budget we're assuming that there will 4 be continued growth of that. If that doesn't 5 materialize, we won't pay it. 6 Again, we only pay the actual costs 7 that are incurred by the provider. We do not pay 8 some fixed price. So if in fact our assumptions 9 are not correct and the costs come down, then we 10 won't have to pay these costs to the provider. 11 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Thank you. 12 Commissioner, on Page 45-30 of the detail you have 13 $2.3 million for Philadelphia health management 14 for drug treatment programs. Are they a direct 15 provider? 16 MR. KING: What page is that again? 17 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: 45-30. 18 MR. KING: I believe that is 19 connected with the F.I.R. program. I'd ask Ellen 20 or -- 21 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: I'm sorry? 22 MR. KING: I believe that's funding 23 connected with the F.I.R. program, but I would ask 24 Deputy Commissioner Appel to come up and explain 25 that. 00110 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: I have no 3 idea what the F.I.R. program is. 4 MR. KING: Forensic Intensive 5 Recovery. 6 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Okay. All 7 right. Good. 8 MR. APPEL: Hello. I'm Allen Appel. 9 I'm the Deputy Commissioner for Treatment. The 10 F.I.R. program provides for the early parole of 11 inmates to enter drug treatment in a variety of 12 community agencies. 13 And it removes those inmates 14 directly from the prisons. So it helps to reduce 15 the inmate population, while it also helps to 16 reduce the numbers that come back through the drug 17 treatment successes that it provides. 18 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Are they 19 community groups that you're referring to? Are 20 they the ones that are outlined on page 45-30? 21 MR. APPEL: They are a number of 22 those. There are others that make up the F.I.R. 23 network that receive their funding not through the 24 prisons but through other agencies. 25 COUNCIL PRESIDENT VERNA: Okay. 00111 1 04/02/03 - Committee of the Whole 2 Well, of the $2.3 millio